Navy to potentially create training ships on great lakes

[GR66]

OK… how does the RC Navy stationing vessels on the Great Lakes for Training and Patrol equal a constabulary role?

Presumably if we're intending to use them for some sort of law-enforcement role along the Great Lakes they would have RCMP, CBSA or some other law enforcement officers aboard to conduct the actual law enforcement and the RCN crew would be in support.

 

[Kirkhill]

If border work isn't beneath Mummy.....

AI Overview

The Royal Navy conducts border patrols, including maritime security, fishery protection, and counter-smuggling, often in support of the Border Force in the English Channel, as well as international patrol duties in places like the Caribbean and Falklands. Recent operations have included monitoring Russian naval activity in UK waters and responding to migrant crossings. The navy's offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) are a key asset for these missions.

Key border patrol roles

Maritime security: The navy provides a visible presence in UK waters and internationally to help safeguard maritime borders.
Fishery protection: Royal Navy ships are tasked with enforcing fishing regulations around the UK.
Counter-smuggling: While the Border Force is the primary agency, the navy can provide support in operations against smuggling.
Response to illegal crossings: The Royal Navy can be called on to support the Border Force during migrant crossings, such as those in the English Channel.
International presence: The navy patrols waters around overseas territories and deploys ships for tasks like escorting foreign warships through UK waters and humanitarian aid.

Recent examples of border patrols

English Channel monitoring: In November 2025, the patrol ship HMS Severn intercepted Russian warships transiting through the Dover Strait and English Channel as part of a round-the-clock shadowing operation, says the BBC and GOV.UK.
Support for the Border Force: The Ministry of Defence has taken over command of the English Channel migrant operation, a role previously held solely by the Border Force.
Intelligence gathering: In another recent event, the Royal Navy responded to a suspected Russian spy ship entering British waters, notes Naval News.

 

[Baz]

Presumably if we're intending to use them for some sort of law-enforcement role along the Great Lakes they would have RCMP, CBSA or some other law enforcement officers aboard to conduct the actual law enforcement and the RCN crew would be in support.

I guess, but persumably when floating these types of ideas in an environment where the US administration is seemingly looking for any reason to have at us it would be prudent to be clear about these things?

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the issue has already been broached informally at the Permanent Joint Board of Defence.

 

[lenaitch]

Been there; done that for five years; got the T-shirt.

There's a guy-Dave Sandford-who takes some terrific photos of Erie when it goes wild. Here's one:

We lived on the western north shore with just under 200 feet of back yard - only about twenty of it was dry land the rest was under the lake. This isn't our house but the situation was like this with a south winf:

In the winter time - you'd get muddy brown water thrown on the side of the house where it frequently instantly froze to the walls. Again, not my house and it never got quite this bad. One of the reasons we moved inland is because after five years the pounding of the surf twenty feet away from your window stops being romantic. Yes - we often went to bed wearing earplugs.

In the springtime when the ice breaks up it can get shoved onto the shore. That's more likely on the US side - like here - because the prevailing winds generally come from the northwest but on occasion, if conditions are right, it happens on the Canadian shore too.

The worst thing when the wind is westerly and before there is ice is the lake-effect snow that hits the Buffalo area. It can be brutal with 3 to 5 feet in 24 hours. Quite the opposite near Blenheim because we had very little snow - a inch or two usually - and it really only lasted a few days or maybe a week. Most of our Christmases were green although there was one very snowy February while we were away down south.

Almost like doing avalanche control at Rogers Pass.

Not mention the seiche effect where wind and air pressure pushes water from one end of the lake to the other.

There a FB page (and maybe other social media sites) called 17 North Photography that posts incredible images from the Ontario side of Lake Superior'

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I remember fishing for Lake Trout in a tin boat in July wearing a parka.

FJAG, Joint Task Force Pacific (JTF-P) still operates a huge program with DEA, Homeland Security (ICE), CIA, US Coast Guard patrolling within one of the largest Anti-Drug and Anti-Human Smuggling Operations in North America. I did the last five years 2017 - 2022 on the West Coast, and is always busy for the RCN, and CANSOFCOM. The St. Lawrence River and Great Lakes are fantastic places to close up the gaps coming into Canada and out of Canada by shipping routes for ORCA Class and the incoming Super Corvettes known to the Sheep and in the media as the Canadian Multi Mission Corvette, replacing the outgoing Kingston Class MCDV or Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels. The Multi-Billion Dollar Stolen Truck and SUV Industry that is sending them out by ships from Canada to International Black Markets in Sea Containers from the Great Lakes and through the St. Lawrence River to sea is one of the many Black Markets that are going to eventually fear the sight of an ORCA or Super Corvette pulling them over for a sea inspection of cargo. It is no longer about just the Arctic, Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, but also our Interior Waters with Ocean Access.

It's another layer, but it would be more effective and cheaper to interdict the sea cans full of stolen vehicles before they leave port (or even better, before they are loaded).

Is referring to the general public as "Sheep" meant in a loving way?

OK… how does the RC Navy stationing vessels on the Great Lakes for Training and Patrol equal a constabulary role?

We already have to Shiprider Program:

https://rcmp.ca/en/federal-policing/border-integrity/canada-us-shiprider

 

[Kirkhill]

And what does the British Coast Guard do?

AI Overview



The British Coast Guard, His Majesty's Coastguard (HMCG), is the UK's national maritime emergency service that coordinates all search and rescue (SAR) operations, responding to a wide range of incidents on the coast and at sea. It operates 24/7 through a network of coastal stations, SAR helicopters, and volunteer rescue teams that handle everything from missing persons and cliff rescues to marine pollution and vessel emergencies.

Key responsibilities:

Search and Rescue (SAR): The primary role is to respond to persons in distress at sea or on the shoreline. This includes:
Missing person searches
Cliff and mud rescues
Incidents involving vessels in distress
Responding to emergencies like flooding and downed aircraft


Coordination: HMCG operations rooms coordinate the response, tasking resources such as its own helicopters, volunteer coastguard rescue teams, lifeboats (often provided by the RNLI), and other emergency services.

Maritime Safety and Security: While its main function is SAR, HMCG also has responsibilities related to maritime safety and security, including vessel traffic management and anti-pollution efforts.

Emergency Response: It acts as a national emergency service, responding to a wide variety of incidents across the entire UK. If you see an emergency on the coast, you should call 999 and ask for the Coastguard.

Education and Prevention: HMCG provides safety advice and resources to the public, particularly for children, to promote water safety.

 

[Kirkhill]

The other aspect fo Canadian Coast Guard duties in the UK tradition

Trinity House is the General Lighthouse Authority (GLA) for England, Wales, the Channel Islands, and Gibraltar, responsible for maintaining a network of aids to navigation like lighthouses and buoys to ensure safe passage for ships. It also acts as a maritime charity that provides welfare, education, and support to the seafaring community and has statutory powers to mark and disperse wrecks.

Primary functions as the General Lighthouse Authority

Aids to navigation: Provides and maintains over 600 aids to navigation, including lighthouses, buoys, and electronic systems like Differential GPS, to help mariners navigate safely.
Wreck management: Has the statutory power to mark and disperse wrecks that pose a hazard to shipping.
Navigation expertise: Audits over 11,000 local aids to navigation and provides Elder Brethren as Nautical Assessors to the Admiralty Court.
Pilotage: Licenses Deep Sea Pilots to help guide vessels through specific waters.

Charitable work

Seafarer welfare: Provides support, education, and welfare to the seafaring community, including retired mariners and their families.
Funding: Donates approximately $5 million annually to maritime charities and programs, such as those for cadet training and safety education.

 

[Baz]

We already have to Shiprider Program:

https://rcmp.ca/en/federal-policing/border-integrity/canada-us-shiprider

I read the article you provided and only saw references to the RCMP and USCG. I did not see any references to the RCN or USN.

 

[Kirkhill]

Navy does constabulary duties.
Army puts out fires and collects garbabe.

Late 20th and Early 21st Centuries (Service Provision): The role of the military has shifted in recent decades towards maintaining essential services during strikes rather than direct policing or force. Examples include:

Binmen's strike (1975): Soldiers were called in to clear refuse in Glasgow.
Firefighters' strikes (1977-1978 and 2002): Military personnel operated "Green Goddess" fire trucks to provide emergency cover.
Planned action (1984-1985): During the miners' strike, the government of Margaret Thatcher developed secret contingency plans to use 4,500 soldiers to move coal stocks, although these were not officially implemented at the time.

Recent Years: The military has a standing liability to support civil authorities when their capacity is exceeded, which has included supporting the NHS and other services during recent strikes in the 2020s, as well as handling specific incidents like the 2001 foot-and-mouth outbreak and widespread flooding.

The use of the military in civilian spheres remains a point of controversy, with concerns raised about its impact on military morale, recruitment, and the principle of keeping the armed forces separate from domestic political disputes.

 

[Baz]

Navy does constabulary duties.

But you know full well that is not what I'm talking about. To be clear, as a Canadian citizen I would be none to happy if an Admiral poked the US Administration without:
a. thinking it through;
b. engaging with them before hand, through the structures that have existed for literally decades; and
c. telling his bosses (ie the Government, who is my representative, for better or worse, not him) first.

Some see "telling it like it is" and populism as a good thing. I don't. Telling it like it is often results in people sticking their foot squarely in their mouth, and sometimes it takes a while for the secondary effects to be apparent.

 

[FJAG]

Not mention the seiche effect where wind and air pressure pushes water from one end of the lake to the other.

We had those on very rare occasions but nothing major at all. Again prevailing winds are NW'rly and south winds not generally very strong. Usually when you had the strongest winds they came from the west or southwest which paralleled our shoreline.

They can get very big depending on how long the winds last.

Historically, a 22-foot seiche that occurred on Lake Erie in 1844 and which killed 78 people is the tallest recorded. Other impressive seiches occurred in 1965 and 2008.

This from a news article about today's effects on the lake

Ship Junkies - Lakes, Locks & Rivers (LL&R) ·​

Lyn Crouse ·otpeSonsrdr7hsc1ah67Yt ea43te235Pt9m68d y2gMm6aa8:9187t908 1 ·

LAKE ERIE: Hits Bottom Wednesday!

​

Trillions of gallons of water will drain and become displaced from western Lake Erie in a very rare and major “seiche” that is expected to begin Wednesday. The passage of a powerful cold front early Wednesday morning will blast the Great Lakes with high winds by late afternoon. It’s likely that wind gusts may reach 60 mph over the lake. Monster waves of 18-20 feet offshore in central Lake Erie are possible.

The persistent and gusty southwest to west wind of 30-45 mph with gusts to 60 mph are ideal conditions to empty the shallow western basin of Lake Erie. Those that follow me may remember…this seiche may be similar to the January 2023 event that left the bottom of western Lake Erie completely exposed in spots.

Water levels are expected to literally “bottom out” near Toledo dropping 6 FEET from present levels by Wednesday and rise an astounding 5.5 FEET in eastern Lake Erie near Buffalo. By Wednesday night, the water level difference on Lake Erie may be 11.5 FEET higher in Buffalo than Toledo just due to the wind!

While this rare phenomenon may expose hundreds or perhaps thousands of feet of Lake Erie shoreline, the water will be eventually return ans slosh back and forth was winds relent. This mass movement of water and sloshing back and forth similar to water in a bath tub is known as a seiche.

 

[Kirkhill]

But you know full well that is not what I'm talking about. To be clear, as a Canadian citizen I would be none to happy if an Admiral poked the US Administration without:
a. thinking it through;
b. engaging with them before hand, through the structures that have existed for literally decades; and
c. telling his bosses (ie the Government, who is my representative, for better or worse, not him) first.

Some see "telling it like it is" and populism as a good thing. I don't. Telling it like it is often results in people sticking their foot squarely in their mouth, and sometimes it takes a while for the secondary effects to be apparent.

I do not believe in "telling it like it is" if that is suggestive of incivility. I do believe that you can tell it like it is and be civil, polite even, although since the 1960s a segment of society chose to frame that as hypocrisy. I also happen to believe the one man's populism is another man's democracy.

Having said that an Admiral can't walk away from the uniform. There is no out of uniform down time so words should be measured carefully. We agree on that.

...

Having said that, and admitting I may have over-reacted myself, I often find myself reacting to professionals hired by my government declaring that this or that activity is not in their job description.

I find that problematic for a force of last resort.

....

WRT the specific case of small boat operations on the Great Lakes, and inland and inshore waters for that matter, I have often wondered how you create big ship drivers capable of independent command in the absence of a large pool of experienced people. That is part of the reason I asked about Coast Guard vs Navy training opportunities. The Coast Guard seems to have more small boat command berths than does the Navy.

I was going to pull out another Britishism and address the all volunteer Royal National Lifeboat Institute but I'm going to save that for the Army Reserve Restructuring thread

....

I understood that the Hero Class, butchered though they were, were originally purchased as patrol vessels and the St Lawrence and the Great Lakes, along with the Inside Passage, was supposed to be their turf. I couldn't help but see them as a lost opportunity for the Navy to add a step between the Orcas and the MCDVs as a first command for Naval officers. Even if they were just driving Mounties from crime scene to crime scene.

 

[GR66]

But you know full well that is not what I'm talking about. To be clear, as a Canadian citizen I would be none to happy if an Admiral poked the US Administration without:
a. thinking it through;
b. engaging with them before hand, through the structures that have existed for literally decades; and
c. telling his bosses (ie the Government, who is my representative, for better or worse, not him) first.

Some see "telling it like it is" and populism as a good thing. I don't. Telling it like it is often results in people sticking their foot squarely in their mouth, and sometimes it takes a while for the secondary effects to be apparent.

The Orca replacement "plan" and stationing them on the Great Lakes is an idea that VAdm Topshee has said he's possibly like to see. Maybe after some actual decisions are made on what the Orca replacement might look like, where specifically they'd like to see them stationed and what exact role we expect them to play we can look at the various enabling admin surrounding their use.

 

[Baz]

The Orca replacement "plan" and stationing them on the Great Lakes is an idea that VAdm Topshee has said he's possibly like to see. Maybe after some actual decisions are made on what the Orca replacement might look like, where specifically they'd like to see them stationed and what exact role we expect them to play we can look at the various enabling admin surrounding their use.

Completely agree, that's not my point.

He should not of brought into the conversation the word "patrol" unless it was well thought out. How he wants to train the Navy is in his lanes. Randomly thinking out loud about changing the status quo of an international boundary is not. Therefore, I hope it was not random.

However, I have observed more than a few of his seemingly random comments do not seem to be well thoguht out or in his lane, hence my concern.

 

[Baz]

I do not believe in "telling it like it is" if that is suggestive of incivility.

I'm not talking about incivility. I find that there is a lot of shooting from the hip, not taking the time to do the background work, not knowing how to use a staff, not knowing how to state a position in a forum other than social media, and the like, are making us dumber. To the point that certain people value "telling it like it is" and "common sense" over an actual decision making process, to their own long term detriment.

I'm worried that slipping in the word patrol because of how it might play to certain factions in Canada, inside and outside of the governement, is not well thought out. I have observed him do this before.

I hope it is not the case.