New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Cloud Cover]

At least it wasn't taken through a periscope sight.

 

[suffolkowner]

With respect to the Polar icebreaker project what is the point or need for this one ship? Is it really just a leftover vanity project? It seems to me as an outsider without knowing the basis of the requirements that this is the case, and that we would be better served with a longer run of more of the "medium" icebreakers

 

[PuckChaser]

If we want to be a real player in the Arctic Ocean, we need the right toys to contribute. We probably could use a few more than forecasted as well.

 

[Uzlu]

With respect to the Polar icebreaker project what is the point or need for this one ship?

It might be two.  I am in favour of a minimum of six.  With global warming, more ships are going to be up north.  That means a greater risk of a ship in distress, breaking up, and spilling oil.  Yeah, icebreakers are expensive.  But oil spills are also expensive.  Having enough heavy icebreakers around to tow a ship to safety might be a good idea.

 

[suffolkowner]

It might be two.  I am in favour of a minimum of six.  With global warming, more ships are going to be up north.  That means a greater risk of a ship in distress, breaking up, and spilling oil.  Yeah, icebreakers are expensive.  But oil spills are also expensive.  Having enough heavy icebreakers around to tow a ship to safety might be a good idea.

I am not really questioning the need for icebreakers but rather the distribution of sizes/types. At this point Davie is suppossedly going to be building six medium icebreakers. And we currently have two "heavy" icebreakers including the Terry Fox which is not a large ship and 4 of the type 1200 class medium icebreakers. Plus 3 of the Viking conversions by Davie coming online

for comparison

Louis St. Laurent  119.8m Length  24.4m Beam  15324 tonnes displacement
Terry Fox              88m  length    17.8m beam    7000 tonnes
type 1200            98.3m length    19.5m beam    8000 tonnes
Vikings                83.7m length    18m  beam    6800 tonnes
Aiviq                    110m length    24.4m beam    13000 tonnes
Diefenbaker          150m length    28m  beam    23500 tonnes

numbers via internet so shake some salt on them

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Iran has bested ups by combining the CSC, AOPS and AOR roles into one vessel, we must not have a Joint Everything Gap!  https://twitter.com/PressTV/status/1329347554069393408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1329347554069393408%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.almasdarnews.com%2Farticle%2Firan-launches-massive-oceangoing-warship-with-cutting-edge-missiles-photos%2F

 

[Cloud Cover]

Why does the ski ramp head into the bridge superstructure? Painful.

 

[CBH99]

If you scroll down a little bit, there is video of a C-Ram doing it's thing.  Wherever the video is being shot from, looks really nice to be honest  :nod:

 

[Spencer100]

Davie is still working the lobbying hard

https://www.insidelogistics.ca/procurement/navy-may-buy-converted-cargo-ships-173624/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newcom&utm_campaign=MMandD&utm_content=2020112091832

 

[newfin]

Good news for the Coast Guard.  It took a long time but they finally have their lines on the CCGS Jean Goodwill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRI2mlstTyU

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Davie is still working the lobbying hard

https://www.insidelogistics.ca/procurement/navy-may-buy-converted-cargo-ships-173624/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newcom&utm_campaign=MMandD&utm_content=2020112091832

Once the two JSS are in commission, offer to buy the Astreix and run her under a new Federal Fleet Service contract that`s more favourable to DND.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Once the two JSS are in commission, offer to buy the Astreix and run her under a new Federal Fleet Service contract that`s more favourable to DND.

Sigh... these budget reviews always gloss over that the project cost estimates include a lot for things like infrastructure upgrades, training, spares etc (about $1B in the PBO report when you dig into it) plus 20-30% contingency.

If you included similar infrastructure upgrades to also support Asterix and Obelix with jetties, spares, training, IP rights etc it's suddenly a lot more then the $1.4 billion quoted, and that's for ships that would be almost 20 years old at the time and less capable. Not really what I'd call a deal.

 

[Cloud Cover]

It’s also pretty hard to justify 4 over 2 when for 10 years the RCN will get by with 0 owned, 1 leased.

 

[MilEME09]

It’s also pretty hard to justify 4 over 2 when for 10 years the RCN will get by with 0 owned, 1 leased.

Get by, but barely, 1 ship limits us to supporting one coast at a time. The other has to rely on our allies.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I guess the political response would be thats what allies are for. To help Canada, not the other way around ...

 

[JMCanada]

Davie is still working the lobbying hard

More on Davie and the CCG's icebreakers:
http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/news?news/3024

There is a statement there I don't fully understand

" This includes the first fully converted icebreaker CCGS Jean Goodwill which, along with the delivery of CCGS Captain Molly Kool, represents Canada's biggest addition of icebreaking capacity in a generation."

Being sister ships, being converted into (I assume) same lines and standards, ... why Jean Goodwill is said to be the FIRST FULLY converted icebreaker if Molly Kool was delivered first?
I only may supposse that due to their different careers, Jean had a tougher life and had to undergone major mid-life overhaul and upgrade.

 

[Spencer100]

More on Davie and the CCG's icebreakers:
http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/news?news/3024

There is a statement there I don't fully understand

" This includes the first fully converted icebreaker CCGS Jean Goodwill which, along with the delivery of CCGS Captain Molly Kool, represents Canada's biggest addition of icebreaking capacity in a generation."

Being sister ships, being converted into (I assume) same lines and standards, ... why Jean Goodwill is said to be the FIRST FULLY converted icebreaker if Molly Kool was delivered first?


only may supposse that due to their different careers, Jean had a tougher life and had to undergone major mid-life overhaul and upgrade.

Molly Kool, was just basically painted and put to service.  Jean Goodwill is customized.  I think the plan is to put the third one in service after converted then go back and redo the Molly Kool.

 

[CBH99]

It’s also pretty hard to justify 4 over 2 when for 10 years the RCN will get by with 0 owned, 1 leased.

Hey, at least we aren't relying on Chile to lend us a ship.  Things are getting better 

 

[Uzlu]

Federal cabinet, provinces engage in tug-of-war over polar icebreaker contract

B.C.'s Seaspan is seen as the leading candidate — but Quebec wants the work for the Davie shipyard

Ottawa's efforts to build a massive icebreaker have become the focus of a heated interprovincial political battle over a plan to send the work to a B.C.-based firm instead of a Quebec shipyard.

Federal and industry sources say the Vancouver-based Seaspan Shipyard is back in hunt for the contract, more than a year after the federal government rescinded the order for the vessel. Sources estimate that the contract, which had an estimated value of $1.3 billion in 2013, is now worth close to $2 billion.

The sources said a plan to award the contract to Seaspan was presented recently to the cabinet committee on the economy and the environment, strongly suggesting the company is now seen as the leading candidate for the job.

The sources said federal ministers from Quebec — fearing that the Bloc Québécois would benefit politically from a decision to send the work to another province — have been trying to bring the Lévis-based Davie shipyard back into the process. That campaign is being led by Liberal House Leader Pablo Rodriguez, who was named Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Quebec lieutenant after the 2019 general election.

Davie, located just across the St. Lawrence River from Quebec City, is frequently depicted in Quebec politics and media as a victim of unfair treatment at the hands of the federal government.

When Ottawa formally launched its national shipbuilding strategy in 2011, Seaspan and the Irving shipyard in Halifax were the only facilities qualified to build vessels for the Canadian Navy and federal agencies such as the Canadian Coast Guard.

At the time, Davie was facing financial problems and was left out of the federal shipbuilding process entirely.

Plans to build a new polar icebreaker — to be named the John G. Diefenbaker — were announced in 2008 by the Harper government. Seaspan was awarded the work in 2011, but the federal government rescinded that order in June of last year.

"Canada made the decision to substitute the one polar icebreaker with a long run of 16 multipurpose vessels (MPVs)," said Marc-André Charbonneau, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada.

"Given the importance of icebreaking capacity, the government is exploring options to ensure the polar is built in the most efficient manner, but no decisions have been [made] yet."

In 2011, the government was working to bring Davie in as an official member of the shipbuilding program. Because its shipyard is much bigger than Seaspan's, many observers suggested the work on the polar icebreaker would go to Quebec.

Negotiations to bring Davie into the fold continue to this day. As part of those talks, Davie expects to be asked to build six smaller icebreakers.

While both Seaspan and Davie have a number of firm or potential orders lined up, the Diefenbaker project remains their ultimate goal.

In February, the federal government approached all major shipyards in the country and asked them to provide information about their ability to build a polar icebreaker.

In recent months, Seaspan has been talking publicly about the regional benefits that would flow to other parts of the country if it gets the contract. It has entered into partnerships with Ontario's Heddle shipyards and Newfoundland's Genoa Design International.

Ontario Premier Doug Ford and B.C. Premier John Horgan have both called for the allocation of federal shipbuilding work to Seaspan.

Quebec Premier François Legault, meanwhile, wrote to Trudeau in October to privately support Davie's bid for the polar icebreaker. On Wednesday, he urged the federal government via his Twitter account "to quickly confirm that the contract will be awarded to Davie."

Sources said the polar icebreaker file is still the subject of intense discussions in Ottawa and that the matter has yet to be debated in front of the full cabinet. The government is expected to issue an update on the project over the coming weeks.

"No final decision has been taken on where any potential icebreaker will be built," said James Fitz-Morris, a spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Minister Anita Anand.

The Diefenbaker will be the biggest ship ever built by the Canadian government. It will replace the Louis S. St-Laurent, which first came into service in 1969. According to the initial plan, Seaspan was supposed to have built the vessel by 2017.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/polar-icebreaker-shipbuilding-seaspan-davie-1.5834290

 

[Navy_Pete]

Some facts for context; the Seaspan yard was specifically upgraded designed to accommodate all ships in the non-combat package, which included the Polar icebreaker.

Davie was also allowed to bid and not excluded as reported repeatedly; they lost.  :dunno:

Given that it's 2020 and we still don't have requirements finalized for Polar, also pretty unfair to blame Seaspan for it not being ready. That 2017 date was a pipedream, and not even a fully operational experienced yard could have designed, built and delivered that package in that time. There was about a two year period to overhaul/upgrade the shipyards once they were awarded the NSS contracts, and Davie would have had to do the exact same kind of thing to get their facilities up to the NSS required standard. They still do AFAIK so not like they would cut steel tomorrow if they got the contract today.

Not saying it wouldn't make sense to shift Polar & some other icebreakers to Davie if the MPVs go ahead and fill Seaspan's order books for the next twenty years or whatever, but CBC and others really need to get their facts right and stop parroting Davie's PR folks BS.