New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[KevinB]

Interesting. That was my wonder really. Will the limitation be the ships ability to generate the power needed for sustained contact.

Clearly the answer is Nuclear power…

 

[Navy_Pete]

Clearly the answer is Nuclear power…

Really more about the short term power demands and things like cooling, not the actual power generation.

The boffins are looking at different options, but really depends on the actual laser power requirements, as well as parallel advances in solid state electronics. Big battery banks are their own risk, and for good reason, some safety issues around them on combatants still need to be figured out.

Power System and Energy Storage Models for Laser
Integration on Naval Platforms
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1014946.pdf

 

[Kirkhill]

Lasers seem to be in the same power band as typical industrial motors - 20 to 300 kW.

The US Army is integrating a 20 kW-class laser weapon system into its new Infantry Squad Vehicle (ISV) to help soldiers down smaller unmanned aerial systems (UASs), according to the director of the service's Rapid Capabilities and Critical Technologies Office Lieutenant General Neil Thurgood.

US Army outfitting Infantry Squad Vehicle with 20 kW laser, DE M-SHORAD deliveries forthcoming

The US Army is integrating a 20 kW-class laser weapon system into its new Infantry Squad Vehicle (ISV) to help soldiers down smaller unmanned aerial systems (UASs),...

www.janes.com

The Directed Energy Maneuver Short Range Air Defense (DE M-SHORAD) system is a 50-kilowatt laser weapon mounted on a Stryker infantry carrier vehicle. Instead of a Stinger missile, think of a high powered beam of energy directed at a target.

The Army is putting lasers on Strykers powerful enough to shoot down drones and helicopters

The "L" in "Lethality" stands for "Lasers"

taskandpurpose.com

There was exciting news for the US Navy last week as it was announced that Lockheed Martin finally delivered the 60+ kW-class high-energy laser with integrated optical-dazzler and surveillance (HELIOS), the first tactical laser weapon system to be integrated into existing ships. The weapon is also capable of providing directed energy capability to the fleet.

It’s finally here: Lockheed Martin delivers 60+ kW laser to the US Navy

A total game-changer.

interestingengineering.com

Giant US defense contractor Lockheed Martin says it has delivered a 300 kW electrically driven laser - the most powerful it has ever produced - for weapons demonstration efforts by the US Army.

Lockheed Martin delivers 300kW laser to US military

Arms firm says that record-breaking laser weapon is ready to be integrated with US Department of Defense demonstrations.

optics.org

Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.

 

[Good2Golf]

Lasers seem to be in the same power band as typical industrial motors - 20 to 300 kW.

US Army outfitting Infantry Squad Vehicle with 20 kW laser, DE M-SHORAD deliveries forthcoming

The US Army is integrating a 20 kW-class laser weapon system into its new Infantry Squad Vehicle (ISV) to help soldiers down smaller unmanned aerial systems (UASs),...

www.janes.com

The Army is putting lasers on Strykers powerful enough to shoot down drones and helicopters

The "L" in "Lethality" stands for "Lasers"

taskandpurpose.com

It’s finally here: Lockheed Martin delivers 60+ kW laser to the US Navy

A total game-changer.

interestingengineering.com

Lockheed Martin delivers 300kW laser to US military

Arms firm says that record-breaking laser weapon is ready to be integrated with US Department of Defense demonstrations.

optics.org

Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.

that would make for some awesome SOVPATs!

 

[Navy_Pete]

Harry De Wolfs have four 3600 kW generators. 25% of that power, 1 generator, would power 12 of the highest energy lasers currently available.

It's not the power, it's the instantaneous demand requirement and cycle time, which is why they use batteries/capacitors that need recharged. 30 kW delivered in a fraction of a second is completely different than over a few minutes.

You can have the same amount of energy in a bucket of fuel and some explosives, but they each have different applications. Same idea here.

 

[Lumber]

Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!

 

[Kirkhill]

Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!

Like these?

F-22 Raptor Covered In Mirror-Like Coating Photographed Flying Out Of Nellis AFB

An exotic test jet has been spotted wearing a similar coating in the past, but an F-22 wearing it is a major development.

www.thedrive.com

F-35 And F-117 Spotted Flying With Mysterious Mirror-Like Skin

The Air Force's F-117 and the Navy's F-35C join the F-22 and the Model 401 as aircraft that have donned the mysterious metallic-looking coating.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!

polished aluminium for the win?

 

[Kirkhill]

polished aluminium for the win?

Might make EO/IR tracking a bit easier for the conventional weapons.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Might make EO/IR tracking a bit easier for the conventional weapons.

So we should tell the enemy not to polish their aircraft as it's unfair to our laser and then whack them with a proximity round.

 

[Underway]

Also, there's a limited window of utility for lasers. Once countries start making the exterior of their missiles and UAVs out of mirrors, the gig is up!

Not just that, ceramic coatings would degrade the heating properties of lasers significantly. Tiles from the space shuttle for would essentially make a target invlunerable to laser damage in that area. Engineering challenges there for sure though. You'd have to keep sensors free from ceramics (which can block EM quite well), and being tough but brittle their material properties are not ideal for aircraft.

It's not the power, it's the instantaneous demand requirement and cycle time, which is why they use batteries/capacitors that need recharged. 30 kW delivered in a fraction of a second is completely different than over a few minutes.

You can have the same amount of energy in a bucket of fuel and some explosives, but they each have different applications. Same idea here.

Completely agree with this. The power draw may be much higher then just a continuous load DG can provide. This is one of the flaws of the railgun system, where you needed to charge capacitors before firing, reducing the continuous firing rate. I wouldn't be surprised in the future if a laser system had its own dedicated DG to keep the load high enough to rapidly charge batteries/capacitors continuously in a combat situation.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

polished aluminium for the win?

That is a bit of myth and does not actually work against a weapons grade laser.

 

[KevinB]

That is a bit of myth and does not actually work against a weapons grade laser.

Shhh
You’re giving away secrets

I was looking forward to seeing melted aluminum everywhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

Another eternal truth.

even the most elegant idea or design is a hypothesis. It remains a hypothesis until reduced to engineering, subjected to rigorous field trials, and vindicated—or not—in the real world. It may suffice once amended to meet the test of reality. Or it may not. Failure is always an option.

The Navy's DDG(X) Destroyer: We Have a Price Problem

The DDG(X) program could for sure be a great success. But with costs coming in way over what was promised, we should be worried.

www.19fortyfive.com

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Another eternal truth.

The Navy's DDG(X) Destroyer: We Have a Price Problem

The DDG(X) program could for sure be a great success. But with costs coming in way over what was promised, we should be worried.

www.19fortyfive.com

Suddenly, CSC doesn’t look so expensive, does it?

 

[Kirkhill]

Suddenly, CSC doesn’t look so expensive, does it?

Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.

The Danish answer: their $340 million, 6,600-ton Iver Huitfeldt “Stanflex” frigate.

That’s a lot of ship for the price. But a leading US expert, Bryan Clark, tells us that the Danes may be undercounting their costs by about $50 million, since some of the frigates’ weaponry was recycled from older ships going out of service — an economy made possible by the Danish navy’s Stanflex system of interchangeable equipment modules. That would put the frigate at under $400 million, which is still pretty good compared to LCS or international competitors. The thing is, Clark argued, the costs to the US would be much higher once the design was upgraded to US Navy standards, fitted with US weapons and electronics, and built in less efficient US yards.

Danes Tout $340M Stanflex Frigate For US Navy - But What's Real Cost? - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: Denmark really wants you to know they have a solution for the US Navy’s frigate problem. Pentagon officials are on the record that they’ll consider foreign designs in their quest for a more powerful small warship than the $450–$550 million, 3,400-ton Littoral Combat Ship. The Danish...

breakingdefense.com

 

[MTShaw]

Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.

Danes Tout $340M Stanflex Frigate For US Navy - But What's Real Cost? - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: Denmark really wants you to know they have a solution for the US Navy’s frigate problem. Pentagon officials are on the record that they’ll consider foreign designs in their quest for a more powerful small warship than the $450–$550 million, 3,400-ton Littoral Combat Ship. The Danish...

breakingdefense.com

60 billion for the entire project from 2017 to 2042. The Type 26 was designed as a warship, while the Iver Huitfeld was not. Tons of compartments take alone takes a lot of time and money to build.

I’ve read that also covers the operating costs of the already built CSC ships but I can’t find a reference right now. It’s only 9 o’clock over here.

Also buying sub standard equipment for sailors makes their s jobs harder and probably hurts retention. Cutting corners is how Canada’s defense to gdp is still probably 1.3%.

It also makes it look like bunch of feckless bitches. Hopefully Pierre won’t pull a Harper and a Chretien before him decide that war is over forever and cancel the military.

 

[Kirkhill]

Construction began in September on HMS Venturer, the inaugural vessel for the Royal Navy. The five (Type 31 - Arrowhead 140 - Iver Huitfeldt) ships Britain has ordered will cost £1.25bn, (1.95 BCAD) meaning they cost about a quarter as much as the more sophisticated type 45 Destroyer.

390 MCAD per hull for the Brits

UK and Poland in a new Type 31 frigate tie-up

The UK and Poland have signed a Statement of Intent to collaborate on the procurement and operation of three Arrowhead-140 frigates.

www.navaltoday.com

UK: All five Type 31 frigates to be delivered by 2028

All five Royal Navy's Type 31 frigates will be delivered by 2028, John Howie, chief corporate affairs officer for Babcock revealed.

www.navaltoday.com

Poland beefs up its navy with deal to buy British Type 31 frigates

Boost for the UK defence industry as Babcock triumphs over rival German bid

www.telegraph.co.uk

FTSE 250 company Babock will provide Poland with three frigates based on the Royal Navy’s Type 31 design.

Babcock beat a rival bid from Germany's Thyssenkrupp to lead the £1.4bn (2.19 BCAD) contract. The win will come as a relief for Babcock after it lost out on a three-ship contract with Greece to France’s Naval Group.

The ships will be built in Nato member Poland’s shipyards with Babcock’s design and will feature combat equipment from Thales and anti-aircraft firepower from missile maker MBDA, which is part-owned by Britain’s BAE Systems.

730 MCAD per hull for the Poles

One more country is modernizing its naval fleet with Type 31 frigates

Indonesia plans to build two frigates based on the Royal Navy's Type 31 design (marked also as Arrowhead 140) at Indonesian shipyards.

www.navaltoday.com

Indonesia Bought Two Type 31 Frigates From Babcock

Babcock International has signed an Arrowhead 140 (AH140) frigate design licence agreement with state-owned enterprise PT PAL Indonesia. The contract was secured through a design licence agreement …

www.globaldefensecorp.com

UK wins Indonesian export contract for new frigates

Indonesian firms will build two 'Arrowhead 140' frigates in Indonesia with bespoke design modifications for the Indonesian Navy.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

A Type 31 or Inspiration-class frigate is a general-purpose, light frigate developed by Team 31, led by Babcock International as a prime contractor. The design of the Type 31 vessel is based on Odense Maritime Technology’s (OMT) Iver Huitfeldt-class hull form, which is currently in service with the Royal Danish Navy.

The Royal Navy is buying five similar Type 31 frigates, but Babcock says the baseline Arrowhead 140 design can be configured to meet a broad range of operational requirements specifically tailored for Indonesian operations.

The $720 million deal is a triumph for Jakarta as it looks to benefit from a transfer of technology, not only to build its own military hardware in the future, but to contribute to the economic benefits of developing the country’s shipbuilding industry.

360 MCAD per hull for the Indonesians

2x Absolon
3x Iver Huitfeldt
5x Type 31 (Brit)
3x Type 31 (Pole)
2x Type 31 (Indonesian)

Global fleet of 15 hulls - complete by 2028?

 

[quadrapiper]

Still wish we had Danish project managers and bookkeepers.

Danes Tout $340M Stanflex Frigate For US Navy - But What's Real Cost? - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: Denmark really wants you to know they have a solution for the US Navy’s frigate problem. Pentagon officials are on the record that they’ll consider foreign designs in their quest for a more powerful small warship than the $450–$550 million, 3,400-ton Littoral Combat Ship. The Danish...

breakingdefense.com

The comment about "less efficient US yards" is a bit surprising.

 

[Kirkhill]

RN sucking up Danish lessons learned on the Type 31. Poles tying into the same fount of knowledge.

UK, Denmark to cooperate on introducing Royal Navy's Type 31 frigates into service - Baird Maritime

The Royal Navies of Britain and Denmark have agreed to work side-by-side to bring the UK’s next generation of warships into service. The two allies have agreed to w ..

www.bairdmaritime.com

UK and Poland in a new Type 31 frigate tie-up

The UK and Poland have signed a Statement of Intent to collaborate on the procurement and operation of three Arrowhead-140 frigates.

www.navaltoday.com

Polish set up.

According to the information revealed by the conference attendants, the Miecznik frigates will be 138.7 meters long, 19.7 meters wide, and 5.5 meters deep, with a displacement of about 7000 tonnes. The frigates will be able to operate at sea for 30 days without replenishment. The maximum speed will be 28 knots, and the range at 18 knots will be more than 6,000 nautical miles. The crew of the ships will be about 100-120 people, but the frigates will be able to accommodate up to 160 people.


The frigate’s armament appears to be in line with expectations. 4 quad SSM launchers with RBS-15 mk3/mk4 are mounted at various points on the ship. The Arrowhead140PL is equipped with a 32-cell VLS, and according to a March 4 announcement, MBDA will equip the Sea Ceptor air defence system with CAMM family missiles. Considering that one cell can hold four CAMM missiles, the maximum load of the VLS will be 128 CAMM missiles. The illustration also indicates that the new frigates will be armed with a 76-mm gun and a 35- mm gun. The ship will be capable of carrying and launching MU -90 torpedoes against submarine threats.

There is not much information about the sensor suit, but the image shows that the Miecznik frigate will be equipped with an SM-400 AESA S-band radar supported by an NS -50 rotating radar. The conferees indicate that CAPTAS variable depth sonar and a hull-mounted sonar will be equipped for ASW purposes.

First Look at Poland's new Miecznik Frigate - Naval News

A visualization of Babcock's Arrowhead-140PL design was unveiled last week at a press conference hosted by the consortium PGZ MIECZNIK.

www.navalnews.com

RN set up

General characteristics
Name	Type 31 frigate
Builders	Babcock International[5]
Operators	Royal Navy Indonesian Navy Polish Navy
Preceded by	Type 23 frigate
Cost	£268 million (2019)[1] per unit (est.)
In service	2027[2][3]
Planned	10 (Total)[4] 5 (UK) 2 (Indonesia) 3 (Poland)
Building	1
Completed	0
Type	General purpose frigate
Displacement	5,700 t (5,600 long tons)
Length	138.7 m (455 ft 1 in)
Installed power	4 × Rolls Royce/MTU 20V 8000 M71 (8.2 MW) diesel engines[10] 4 × Rolls Royce/MTU 16V 2000 M41B (900 kW) generators
Propulsion	CODAD propulsion System MAN Alpha VBS Mk 5 CP propeller 2 Shafts [6]
Speed	In excess of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph)
Endurance	9,000 nmi (17,000 km; 10,000 mi)
Complement	80–100 (accommodation for up to 160)
Sensors and processing systems	TACTICOS combat management system Thales NS110 3D radar Raytheon Warship Integrated Navigation and Bridge System Terma Scanter and Raytheon NSX navigation radars 2 Mirador Mk2 EOS Viasat Ultrahigh-frequency satellite communications[7] Sonar 270[8]
Electronic warfare & decoys	Vigile-D ESM
Armament	Anti-air missiles: Up to 24 cells VLS Sea Ceptor anti-air missiles[9] Guns: 1 × 57 mm Mk 110 main gun 2 × 40 mm Mk 4 secondary guns 4 × 7.62 mm General purpose machine guns 4 × 7.62 mm Miniguns For but not with: Mark 41 VLS for various missiles including Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon
Aircraft carried	1 × Wildcat, armed with: 4 × Sea Venom anti ship missiles, or 2 × Sting Ray anti submarine torpedoes, or 20 × Martlet multirole air-surface missiles Mk 11 depth charges or 1 × Merlin, armed with: 4 × Sting Ray anti submarine torpedoes
Aviation facilities	Helicopter hangar and flight deck
Notes	Mission bay under flight deck for 6 TEUs Three boat bays for RHIBs and USVs/UUV

Danish Huitfeld set up

General characteristics
Class overview
Builders	Odense Staalskibsværft Baltija Shipbuilding Yard[5] Loksa Shipyard[5]
Operators	Royal Danish Navy[4]
Preceded by	Niels Juel-class corvette[3]
Subclasses	Type 31 frigate
Cost	US$325 million per ship[1][2]
Built	2008–2011
In commission	2012–present
Planned	3
Completed	3
Type	Air defence frigate
Displacement	6,645 t (6,540 long tons) (full load)
Length	138.7 m (455 ft 1 in)
Beam	19.75 m (64 ft 10 in)
Draft	5.3 m (17 ft 5 in)
Propulsion	Four MTU 8000 20V M70 diesel engines, 8.2 MW each Two shafts, CODAD[7]
Speed	30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph)
Range	9,000 nmi (17,000 km; 10,000 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)[6]
Complement	165
Sensors and processing systems	1 Thales Nederland SMART-L long-range air and surface surveillance radar 1 Thales Nederland APAR air and surface search, tracking and guidance radar (I band) 1 Terma SCANTER 6000 surveillance and helicopter guidance radar Atlas ASO 94 hull mounted sonar 2 Saab CEROS 200 fire control radars ES-3701 Tactical Radar Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
Electronic warfare & decoys	8 × 6-barrelled Terma MK 137 130 mm decoy launchers Seagnat Mark 36 SRBOC
Armament	32-cell Mk 41 VLS for up to 32 SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles [5] 24 × Mk 56 VLS with up to 24 RIM-162 ESSM 8–16 × Harpoon Block II SSM 1 × Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm Naval Revolver Gun System CIWS 2 × OTO Melara 76 mm gun 2 × dual MU90 Impact ASW torpedo launchers
Aircraft carried	1 × MH-60R
Aviation facilities	Aft helicopter deck and hangar

Danish Absolon set up

General characteristics
Class overview
Builders	Odense Staalskibsværft
Operators	Royal Danish Navy
Preceded by	Falster class minelayer
Cost	DKK2.5bn (total),[1] (~US$189m/ship) excluding weapon modules
Built	2003–2004
In commission	2005–present
Completed	2
Active	2
Type	Frigates (formerly support ships)
Displacement	4,500 tonnes light,[1] 6,600 tonnes full load[1]
Length	137 m (449 ft 6 in)[1]
Beam	19.5 m (64 ft 0 in)[1]
Draft	6.3 m (20 ft 8 in)[1]
Propulsion	2 × MTU 8000 M70 diesel engines Two shafts 22,300 bhp (16.6 MW)[1]
Speed	24 knots (44 km/h)[1]
Range	9,000 nmi (17,000 km) at 15 kn (28 km/h)[1]
Boats & landing craft carried	2 × RHIBs, 2 × SB90E LCP
Complement	100, plus aircrew and transients (accommodation for up to 300 in total)
Sensors and processing systems	Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D volume search radar Terma Scanter 6002 surface search radar Atlas ASO 94 sonar 3 × Saab CEROS 200 fire control radars ES-3701 Tactical Radar Electronic Support Measures (ESM)
Electronic warfare & decoys	4 × 12-barrelled Terma DL-12T 130 mm decoy launchers 2 × 6-barrelled Terma DL-6T 130 mm decoy launchers
Armament	5 × StanFlex modules, typically: 3 × 12 RIM-162 ESSM SAM in Mk 48Mod3/ Mk 56 VLS 2 × 8 Harpoon Block II SSM Fixed weapons: 1 × 5"/62 Mk 45 mod 4 gun 2 × Mk32 Mod 14, each with 2 × MU90 torpedoes 2 × Millennium 35 mm CIWS 7 × 12.7 mm M/01 LvSa HMG
Aircraft carried	2 × EH-101 helicopters[1] or 2 MH-60R helicopters
Aviation facilities	Aft helicopter deck and hangars