New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[KevinB]

Nice view. It just doesn't seem that big in that pic.

It's cold out...

 

[Dana381]

It's cold out...

 

[Navy_Pete]

I hope they are keeping the paint job.

Because that's what's important in a two year docking work period.... with all the inserts it will likely look more like CADPAT.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My guess is the CCG was told to drop their pants, bend over and enjoy it. Going by the article, I guessing these vessels primary role will be science, with minimal fisheries or buoy tending capacity. Not sure how they will be useful for Southern ice ops in the winter?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/arctic-offshore-patrol-vessels-irving-ottawa-deal-1.6703756

 

[Halifax Tar]

My guess is the CCG was told to drop their pants, bend over and enjoy it. Going by the article, I guessing these vessels primary role will be science, with minimal fisheries or buoy tending capacity. Not sure how they will be useful for Southern ice ops in the winter?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/arctic-offshore-patrol-vessels-irving-ottawa-deal-1.6703756

That's what I've been hearing from the CCG. They aren't too excited.

 

[KevinB]

Why would they pull the weapons off? Those RCN AOPS only are outfitted with CG type weapons anyway.

 

[GR66]

Why would they pull the weapons off? Those RCN AOPS only are outfitted with CG USCG type weapons anyway.

Fixed that for you

 

[KevinB]

Fixed that for you

It’s actually incredibly poorly armed for a USCG vessel.

National security cutter

The national security cutter is the largest and most technologically advanced of the service's new cutters.

www.uscg.mil

High endurance cutter

Secretary-class cutters are suited for long-range, high-endurance missions, and for fulfilling the maritime security role, which includes drug interdiction, illegal immigrant interception, and

www.uscg.mil

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why would they pull the weapons off? Those RCN AOPS only are outfitted with CG type weapons anyway.

Easy there big fella you're gonna piss people if you actually expected AOPs to be a man-o-war.

 

[KevinB]

Easy there big fella you're gonna piss people if you actually expected AOPs to be a man-o-war.

I didn't - I just question it being a RCN Warship, as opposed to a CCG Vessel.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I didn't - I just question it being a RCN Warship, as opposed to a CCG Vessel.

Because..........


Some hulls are better than no hulls ? Lol


I dunno it's all I got lol

 

[Navy_Pete]

I didn't - I just question it being a RCN Warship, as opposed to a CCG Vessel.

It's because our division of responsibilities and actual employment is completely different; the USCG does things that our warships do (and I'm not sure if any country has an equivalent to the USCG, who will deploy to theatres).

No one in the RCN was asking for AOPs either, it was just what the government of the day decided was needed. I think it will quickly become a white elephant, and we would have been better off with a smaller ship to replace the MCDV and just left the ice breaking to the CCG.

At some point they'll send AOPs on an Op Carribe and realize it has non of the savings of an MCDV while having all the costs of a large ship without the capabilities of a CPF. On the plus side it's a comfortable ride for the crew I guess (when they can eventually leave the wall again).

Hopefully they are useful for the CCG, but I don't think they want them either, and are just trying to shoehorn something useful into a platform that won't do some of the critical functions they actually need.

 

[FSTO]

^^
I think I said the exact thing to many people when this was first proposed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's because our division of responsibilities and actual employment is completely different; the USCG does things that our warships do (and I'm not sure if any country has an equivalent to the USCG, who will deploy to theatres).

No one in the RCN was asking for AOPs either, it was just what the government of the day decided was needed. I think it will quickly become a white elephant, and we would have been better off with a smaller ship to replace the MCDV and just left the ice breaking to the CCG.

At some point they'll send AOPs on an Op Carribe and realize it has non of the savings of an MCDV while having all the costs of a large ship without the capabilities of a CPF. On the plus side it's a comfortable ride for the crew I guess (when they can eventually leave the wall again).

Hopefully they are useful for the CCG, but I don't think they want them either, and are just trying to shoehorn something useful into a platform that won't do some of the critical functions they actually need.

To be fair to the Government, the North is part of Canada and show of force is a RCN task, not a CCG task. It is likley easier to teach Northern Ops to the RCN, then to change the CCG to a Armed Force. that would require a decade+ of management and command rewiring. The RCN ignored the North, because it was not sexy and did not get them brownie points with the NATO club. However things are changing and the North needs more attention than the CCG or other government services can provide alone.

 

[Navy_Pete]

To be fair to the Government, the North is part of Canada and show of force is a RCN task, not a CCG task. It is likley easier to teach Northern Ops to the RCN, then to change the CCG to a Armed Force. that would require a decade+ of management and command rewiring. The RCN ignored the North, because it was not sexy and did not get them brownie points with the NATO club. However things are changing and the North needs more attention than the CCG or other government services can provide alone.

I just don't think that AOPs is a show of force. It's technically armed, and I guess it might be intimidating against someone with no weapons, but it's basically useless otherwise. Showing force sort of requires something to back it up.

At least the CCG version will have science instruments to be useful for something.

Bang for our buck would have been better spent on new subs that were more ice capable if we wanted to RCN to have an effective artic presence.

 

[YZT580]

I just don't think that AOPs is a show of force. It's technically armed, and I guess it might be intimidating against someone with no weapons, but it's basically useless otherwise. Showing force sort of requires something to back it up.

At least the CCG version will have science instruments to be useful for something.

Bang for our buck would have been better spent on new subs that were more ice capable if we wanted to RCN to have an effective artic presence.

Perhaps but no invasion will ever enter the north from the sea. An increase in the number and duties of the rangers would provide both employment and serve a useful purpose. Then consider two manned AF bases in the north; one in the Yukon the other in the Hudson's Bay area: or perhaps Iqaluit with patrol aircraft operating out of both and both bases backed up by air to air resources. Don't think it would cost near what a proper naval presence would entail and they have the benefit of not being iced in for 6 months

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps but no invasion will ever enter the north from the sea.

Never say never. Possession is 9/10th the law.
Armed possession is the other 10th…

An increase in the number and duties of the rangers would provide both employment and serve a useful purpose. Then consider two manned AF bases in the north; one in the Yukon the other in the Hudson's Bay area: or perhaps Iqaluit with patrol aircraft operating out of both and both bases backed up by air to air resources. Don't think it would cost near what a proper naval presence would entail and they have the benefit of not being iced in for 6 months

If you had real icebreakers then it would t be ice in.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Never say never. Possession is 9/10th the law.
Armed possession is the other 10th…



If you had real icebreakers then it would t be ice in.

Only the Russians have "real Ice breakers" The AOP's is roughly the equivalent of the CCG 1100 class light icebreaker. In fact because they are new they might be better than the much older 1100's now. The government is not buying nuke subs, so you get AOP's, which I think are decent stepping stones to more Northern capabilities and need to be part of a whole of government approach to the North, along with dragging the Army and RCAF into the game as well.
People have laughed at my suggestion that the Chinese/Russians could land a "scientific expedition for the benefit of mankind", lets say Mould Bay and declare it as part of a international land owned by no one and that our claim is not legal. Exactly what are we going to do in that case? The Russians can resupply it with their nuclear ice breakers when all of ours are in the South and since they are "civilian ships" are we (US and Canada) ready to sink them? Eventually we would have to land troops and push them out, with a Oka style standoff. The AOP's gives us a limited abilty to do that, with the helo deck and small landing craft.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Only the Russians have "real Ice breakers" The AOP's is roughly the equivalent of the CCG 1100 class light icebreaker. In fact because they are new they might be better than the much older 1100's now. The government is not buying nuke subs, so you get AOP's, which I think are decent stepping stones to more Northern capabilities and need to be part of a whole of government approach to the North, along with dragging the Army and RCAF into the game as well.
People have laughed at my suggestion that the Chinese/Russians could land a "scientific expedition for the benefit of mankind", lets say Mould Bay and declare it as part of a international land owned by no one and that our claim is not legal. Exactly what are we going to do in that case? The Russians can resupply it with their nuclear ice breakers when all of ours are in the South and since they are "civilian ships" are we (US and Canada) ready to sink them? Eventually we would have to land troops and push them out, with a Oka style standoff. The AOP's gives us a limited abilty to do that, with the helo deck and small landing craft.

But , but we're Canada...
Conflict is something that happens to "other people." Far away. Far,far far away very far away.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

But , but we're Canada...
Conflict is something that happens to "other people." Far away. Far,far far away very far away.

Imagine if the US had never bought Alaska, we could have ended up with a Canada looking a bit more like Finland. The border of the Yukon and NW BC would be a long line of fortifications.