New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Navy_Pete]

This makes sense. The synchrolift is for sure to small to accomodate the CSC. Still super useful kit though, almost everything else can fit onto it (subs, MCDV's, CPF's). AOPS might be approaching the max wieght limit on it but it will fit if a frigate does.

I had no idea how they were going to fit that huge ship on the platform outside. So building for more space makes sense.

The upgrades is on the ISI side to build a syncrolift of some kind as well fill in a lot of the area where they used to have a floating dockyard, not to upgrade the one in the CFB dockyard.

Probably something to do with their plan to launch CSC, but not really sure on what the megablock assembly plan is, and if they'll maybe do something like add the superstructure and mast modules after it's floating.

 

[Happy Guy]

for the love of god, no more synchrolifts.

How about more of this ...

 

[MilEME09]

I still don't understand how the government is okay with giving Irving all this morning to upgrade the shipyard, when the bidding for the CSC Irving had to be capable of building the ships without government aid. This money to Irving, one of the wealthiest families and companies in Canada, is a slap in the face of tax payers and our procurement system because a non-compliant bid won, and we are paying for it now. Irving should be getting penalized for delays not handed more money.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I still don't understand how the government is okay with giving Irving all this morning to upgrade the shipyard, when the bidding for the CSC Irving had to be capable of building the ships without government aid. This money to Irving, one of the wealthiest families and companies in Canada, is a slap in the face of tax payers and our procurement system because a non-compliant bid won, and we are paying for it now. Irving should be getting penalized for delays not handed more money.

Politics dear boy.

 

[GK .Dundas]

When you realize that the Maritimes and portions of Northern New England are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Irving family everything kind of falls into place.

 

[Czech_pivo]

When you realize that the Maritimes and portions of Northern New England are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Irving family everything kind of falls into place.

Robber Barons of the 21st century. Old Andrew Carnegie would be proud. Now if the Irving's could only be 'persuaded' to donate 90% of their wealth like old Andrew did.....

 

[Kirkhill]

Robber Barons of the 21st century. Old Andrew Carnegie would be proud. Now if the Irving's could only be 'persuaded' to donate 90% of their wealth like old Andrew did.....

At least Carnegie left a legacy of libraries, concert halls, universities and scholarships.

 

[Stoker]

I still don't understand how the government is okay with giving Irving all this morning to upgrade the shipyard, when the bidding for the CSC Irving had to be capable of building the ships without government aid. This money to Irving, one of the wealthiest families and companies in Canada, is a slap in the face of tax payers and our procurement system because a non-compliant bid won, and we are paying for it now. Irving should be getting penalized for delays not handed more money.

So weren't these upgrades in response to lessons learned on the type 26 build in the UK? Seems to me that the efficiency gained is good news and possibly will speed up production. The addition of additional docking facilities at the yard should be seen as a strategic asset and will be heavily utilized for AOPS and CSC maintenance. Currently the RCN has one lift that can dock a CPF only certain times of the month due to tides. We don't own docking facilities that can take a AOPS or CSC, that's a major problem.

 

[FSTO]

We don't own or have access to docking facilities on the east coast that can take a AOPS or CSC, that's a major problem.

Two coast Navy remember.

(yes I'm being a bit of an arse)

 

[Happy Guy]

Two coast Navy remember.

(yes I'm being a bit of an arse)

I'm a retired army guy and closest that I've been to the navy is living in Juno Towers in Halifax while on TD.

This is an earnest question, shouldn't the RCN operate as a three coast Navy with the Arctic being the third coast? I understand winter conditions in the north will require the need for an icebreaker (1 or 2 at least) or submarines capable of breaking through arctic ice.

 

[Stoker]

Two coast Navy remember.

(yes I'm being a bit of an arse)

Of course just commenting on the EC where the bulk of the CSC and AOPS will be home ported

 

[Furniture]

Of course just commenting on the EC where the bulk of the CSC and AOPS will be home ported

The RCN, fighting yesterday's wars today!

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm a retired army guy and closest that I've been to the navy is living in Juno Towers in Halifax while on TD.

This is an earnest question, shouldn't the RCN operate as a three coast Navy with the Arctic being the third coast? I understand winter conditions in the north will require the need for an icebreaker (1 or 2 at least) or submarines capable of breaking through arctic ice.

There is a refueling base, but no real need to be based up north.

Can do some mobile repairs, but the infrastructure, facilities and people required for that would be staggering.

No different really than ships deploying anywhere in the world for 6-8 months at a time then coming home for major repairs.

Edit:
@Stoker Not much to do with Type 26 LL, more to do with the ship being much larger than what the NSS RFP called for. The whole 'Target State' requirements for the combat package included provisional ship sizes, and CSC wasn't expected to be much bigger than AOPVs, where JSS and Polar icebreaker were grouped together for the same reason as ship size and complexity drives the facility requirements, assembly plans etc.

Bit of a self inflicted wound on our end.

Buying a MOTS design that we then made a bunch of changes seems to be no real different than just having a bespoke design, but at least we inherited the BAE team who are really good, the type 26 design which is well thought out, as well as a lot of the best practices the RN does, which includes some much better material and design standards.

 

[Stoker]

There is a refueling base, but no real need to be based up north.

Can do some mobile repairs, but the infrastructure, facilities and people required for that would be staggering.

No different really than ships deploying anywhere in the world for 6-8 months at a time then coming home for major repairs.

Edit:
@Stoker Not much to do with Type 26 LL, more to do with the ship being much larger than what the NSS RFP called for. The whole 'Target State' requirements for the combat package included provisional ship sizes, and CSC wasn't expected to be much bigger than AOPVs, where JSS and Polar icebreaker were grouped together for the same reason as ship size and complexity drives the facility requirements, assembly plans etc.

Bit of a self inflicted wound on our end.

Buying a MOTS design that we then made a bunch of changes seems to be no real different than just having a bespoke design, but at least we inherited the BAE team who are really good, the type 26 design which is well thought out, as well as a lot of the best practices the RN does, which includes some much better material and design standards.

I did hear the original combat package called for a lighter displacement and the original modifications took that into account. I'm glad at least to have more docking options for our larger ships. JSS would be able to be docked at ISI as well for maintenance. Have you heard about the extent of the facilities changes yet? Are they raising the assembly hall height I wonder?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I did hear the original combat package called for a lighter displacement and the original modifications took that into account. I'm glad at least to have more docking options for our larger ships. JSS would be able to be docked at ISI as well for maintenance. Have you heard about the extent of the facilities changes yet? Are they raising the assembly hall height I wonder?

I've only seen what was in the news, but seems like some massive changes, and will be filling in a lot of what is now a water. There was something about converting over the painting hall as well to production.

I think the existing graving dock is staying, and should accomodate JSS as well. Not 100% but think the old floating drydock was also usable for the AORs, so not really sure what they will do for that.

With the amount of huge repairs the CPFs need though, not really sure where they will do any of the AOPs of JSS dockings as we've run out of shipyards, and the fact that the DWPs are exceeding 1M hours of labour is nuts. The 280/tankers had around 200-250k planned labour hours at end of life, with another 25-50% for growth work. Anyone who thinks the CPFs will get the same lifespan isn't doing an apples to apples comparison.

 

[YZT580]

So weren't these upgrades in response to lessons learned on the type 26 build in the UK? Seems to me that the efficiency gained is good news and possibly will speed up production. The addition of additional docking facilities at the yard should be seen as a strategic asset and will be heavily utilized for AOPS and CSC maintenance. Currently the RCN has one lift that can dock a CPF only certain times of the month due to tides. We don't own docking facilities that can take a AOPS or CSC, that's a major problem.

also, I believe they are footing the bill for Davies as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I've only seen what was in the news, but seems like some massive changes, and will be filling in a lot of what is now a water. There was something about converting over the painting hall as well to production.

I think the existing graving dock is staying, and should accomodate JSS as well. Not 100% but think the old floating drydock was also usable for the AORs, so not really sure what they will do for that.

With the amount of huge repairs the CPFs need though, not really sure where they will do any of the AOPs of JSS dockings as we've run out of shipyards, and the fact that the DWPs are exceeding 1M hours of labour is nuts. The 280/tankers had around 200-250k planned labour hours at end of life, with another 25-50% for growth work. Anyone who thinks the CPFs willget the same lifespan isn't doing an apples to apples comparison.

The PRO class does/did fit the gravying dock.

PRE and it used to like to play bumper cars together

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-preserver-crash-leaves-500k-repair-bill-1.1203948

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm a retired army guy and closest that I've been to the navy is living in Juno Towers in Halifax while on TD.

This is an earnest question, shouldn't the RCN operate as a three coast Navy with the Arctic being the third coast? I understand winter conditions in the north will require the need for an icebreaker (1 or 2 at least) or submarines capable of breaking through arctic ice.

I argue that Canada's "East Coast" begins at Black's Harbour and Passamaquoddy Bay in New Brunswick and ends in the Yukon just north of Old Crow or something on the order of 4000 sea miles =/- 1000. The actual coastline to be patrolled is 217,317 km.

The "West Coast" extends from Victoria to Langara Island off of Prince Rupert - a bit more than 500 sea miles although it has a coastline of 25,725 km.

The "West Coast" is similar in extent to Canada's "Great Lakes Coast" from Thunder Bay to Kingston.
The St Lawrence Seaway from Kingston to Anticosti is 500 to 600 sea miles.

In terms of coastal and inshore assets it makes sense for the entire Arctic capable fleet to be based out of Halifax but with support facilities at St John's, Rigolet, Iqaluit, Resolute, Cambridge Bay and Tuktoyaktuk as well as Churchill.

 

[Stoker]

also, I believe they are footing the bill for Davies as well.

Apparently the Quebec government is.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The PRO class does/did fit the gravying dock.

PRE and it used to like to play bumper cars together

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-preserver-crash-leaves-500k-repair-bill-1.1203948

Thanks, I was pretty sure it did, as I thought that's where I remembered seeing PRE up on blocks.

That's when I learned what the term 'allision' means. A collision is two ships that are moving, an allision is when a ship hits something stationary.

Yet another BOI buried via overclassification with any lessons learned forgotten.

From what I remember, we settled with ISI for the damage to the floating dock, which they had previously sunk alongside by accident anyway. It didn't totally sink because of the draft there, but wasn't much of the casings left about the water line. I think it was mostly okay, as most of the areas that flooded were meant to be flooded to sink it down, but some areas that were supposed to be dry weren't.