New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
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Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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So am I reading that right that Davie is proceeding with the JSS light?
Colin P said:
The Liberals promised to deliver all of the ships in the NSPS through the NSPS. This is a clear signal of them keeping that promise.
In reality, the NSPS is a great idea. It's just about a decade late, leaving gaps in the interim.
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No. A great idea would be to abandon DREE and all its children, and stop paying ridiculous multiples of world prices for Made In Canada.
dapaterson said:
When you spend a dollar in Canada, that dollar stays in Canada potentially forever. It's recycled and multiplied time and again. If we buy ships somewhere else, that dollar is gone. The reality is, ships that are more expensive, produced in Canada, are actually not that much more expensive (and even cheaper) when you consider economic opportunity cost.
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If the government is taking few dollars out of the productive economy, the economy grows. Government has no money of its own to spend. If it's spending more somewhere, it's taking more somewhere else.
J
jollyjacktar
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jmt18325 said:
Yeah, right. Unless that dollar goes to the Irving off shore tax avoidance fund... pull the other one now.
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jmt18325 said:
The problem with that is that most of the stuff that will be going INTO the ships is not built in Canada. The hull may be Canadian materials and the labour for assembling the whole package may be Canadian. But most of the gear, where the big bucks will be spent, will not be Canadian.
Radar. Engines. Weapons. Ancillary engine room gear like oil separators. Some comms, some sonar, some of the control stuff will be sourced here - but even there many of the components, like computers, PLCs, switch gear, are all manufactured overseas.
And PS. If money comes from me and goes to you it is relevant to me.
Chris Pook said:
We're not going to get those things for less money by building elsewhere though, and are probably going to get them from the same place no matter where the hull happens to be built. At least by building them here, we ensure not only that the money for the construction and materials stays here, but that we have the capability to repair the ships in the future. The economic opportunity that is lost by building offshore is huge, even if there is some money to be saved. I used to be in favour of building offshore, but, someone made me see the light in regard to lost economic opportunity.
Further to the points made by JMT, and correct me if I'm wrong, BUT...
- The cost of building the ships in Canada will undoubtedly include labour. I'm going to assume (perhaps wrongfully) that labour will be a fairly sizable portion of any money spent, building the ships here. Is that labour not taxed? Is it not taxed relatively robustly, given we are in Canada?
The point to the above is that while money will be spent, the government may get a considerable amount of that money back. Whether it is workers being taxed, and then further paying GST on their purchases. If the materials are sourced in Canada, then there are taxes to be paid in the acquisition of those materials. And those workers are taxed, etc etc.
So while we may pay a hefty sum to have the ships built in Canada, the government will eventually see a sizable amount of that money returned to it, in various forms. If they are built overseas, that money is gone. No tax revenue, no workers paying GST, less money to Canadian suppliers, their workers aren't being taxed, etc etc.
**Full disclosure - I'm not the sharpest pencil in the case. I could be 100% wrong about everything I said above.
- The cost of building the ships in Canada will undoubtedly include labour. I'm going to assume (perhaps wrongfully) that labour will be a fairly sizable portion of any money spent, building the ships here. Is that labour not taxed? Is it not taxed relatively robustly, given we are in Canada?
The point to the above is that while money will be spent, the government may get a considerable amount of that money back. Whether it is workers being taxed, and then further paying GST on their purchases. If the materials are sourced in Canada, then there are taxes to be paid in the acquisition of those materials. And those workers are taxed, etc etc.
So while we may pay a hefty sum to have the ships built in Canada, the government will eventually see a sizable amount of that money returned to it, in various forms. If they are built overseas, that money is gone. No tax revenue, no workers paying GST, less money to Canadian suppliers, their workers aren't being taxed, etc etc.
**Full disclosure - I'm not the sharpest pencil in the case. I could be 100% wrong about everything I said above.
Karel Doorman
Member
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CBH99 said:
GBH99,Offcourse you're right on all of the above. :nod:
And the point made "if they're built here,you'll have the know how to do repairs,updates",etc is also correct.Since you yourself worked on the hulls(for example)you were there when they(ships)were built,learning along the way.
That's why i suggested;"Maybe it's possible for Canada when choosing a foreign design,to built a number of them,maybe even most(ships)in Canada.I don't know what's possible when making a deal with a foreign shipbuilder.(but there are a number(maybe most,or even all) of them who are willing to do just that(to secure the deal.
So that's up to the government to secure such a deal(let them do their job,if even possible >
)gr,walter
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Any Navy folk conversant with FMF capabilities able to comment on jmt18325's comment that 'ability to repair' is dependent on domestic production? I though 1st/2nd-line (and some 3rd-line?) FMF-type repair was rather different from who produced (or would later modify/refit) a ship? ???
Regards
G2G
Regards
G2G
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
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I don't think jmt18325 was referring to FMF specifically. He was talking about doing repairs here, period. I think he was referring to large repairs that could then be done by the yard that built the ship in Canada to start with, as they would have the knowledge to do so.
As for FMF, for the ongoing maintenance and repairs at the scale they work on, they are quite capable to adapt to any design or equipment, wherever it may have been built. To them, what is more relevant is not where the ship or system was built, but whether the government acquired the plans, standards and rights to modify/fix/repair from the equipment provider, something we already do for numerous pieces of gear FMF fixes, but which were acquired outside of Canada.
As for FMF, for the ongoing maintenance and repairs at the scale they work on, they are quite capable to adapt to any design or equipment, wherever it may have been built. To them, what is more relevant is not where the ship or system was built, but whether the government acquired the plans, standards and rights to modify/fix/repair from the equipment provider, something we already do for numerous pieces of gear FMF fixes, but which were acquired outside of Canada.
Oldgateboatdriver said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about - especially if we're building the same hulls right beside any being repaired, at the same time ( the equipment that goes in to each individual ship is irrelevant to this point). The general knowledge of military shipbuilding, and specific knowledge for our hulls is right there.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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If a shipyard does not get new builds it will fall behind in technology and skillsets, making upkeep and refits very difficult, which due to our geography would mean doing all our refits in US yards, which they would be happy to do and they aren't known for being overly efficient either. If we are going to "waste money" let's at least waste it here. I still like to see 2 Mistrals built and the final finishing and landing craft could be done at Davie without interrupting the other builds. Also let Davie do 1 JSS light that we can use till the JSS are in service and then it can be used to cover off long refits or support long range deployments.
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