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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
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One ship and one ship only. The others will be "harbor training devices".
The CPF highlander memes on reddit will at least be sweet.

There was a COA to have an actual training fleet, with some select CPFs knocked only maintained to SOLAS and doing short trips to get people all the basic experience that you need to be at sea. That's the kind of stuff you need to generate some of the critical trades like MarTechs and get a lot of sailors through their NETP.

Ops room folks can do a huge amount of things alongside in the trainers, as you can duplicate all the external inputs and have dynamic enough scenarios with enough training staff. At one point they were seriously talking about training BWKs all in the trainer, and that's something where you would think actually seeing waves, weather and how the ship reacts in real life is critical for.
 
At one point they were seriously talking about training BWKs all in the trainer, and that's something where you would think actually seeing waves, weather and how the ship reacts in real life is critical for.
The CAF, and many other institutions, look at technology as a magic wand to make all of the real world problems go away. Simulators are good, but nothing beats riding the rollercoaster for a few days to really understand how a ship feels.
 
The CPF highlander memes on reddit will at least be sweet.

There was a COA to have an actual training fleet, with some select CPFs knocked only maintained to SOLAS and doing short trips to get people all the basic experience that you need to be at sea. That's the kind of stuff you need to generate some of the critical trades like MarTechs and get a lot of sailors through their NETP.

Ops room folks can do a huge amount of things alongside in the trainers, as you can duplicate all the external inputs and have dynamic enough scenarios with enough training staff. At one point they were seriously talking about training BWKs all in the trainer, and that's something where you would think actually seeing waves, weather and how the ship reacts in real life is critical for.
"Only maintained to SOLAS" would be an upgrade...
 
The CAF, and many other institutions, look at technology as a magic wand to make all of the real world problems go away. Simulators are good, but nothing beats riding the rollercoaster for a few days to really understand how a ship feels.
For sure, which is why training fleet doing a lot of low tempo sailing focusing on the basics makes sense. Also lots of fun port visits within a week or two to help a boat full of junior people on OJT to build some early and positive port visit memories so not a bad thing for retention etc.

That option was on the table until the GoC bumped up the RCN commitments (I think 2 weeks after the Reconstitution directive lol) and they needed all CPFs deployable (plus MCDVs and AOPs doing combatant things). So instead of a sustainable plan we'll just run the fleet in the ground until there can be only one.

Hopefully no one gets hurt along the way from ships deploying while being below normal marine standards for a cargo ship and the stars lining up the wrong way.
 
"Only maintained to SOLAS" would be an upgrade...
Yeah, that was the plan with Naval Material Assurance and using the Naval Ship Code and Class societies to improve vessel safety. The RCN laughed in deviations and waivers, and accepted the risk before anyone even said what it was. It's wild.

Being in an out of trade job out of Navy lines is a nice break.
 
For sure, which is why training fleet doing a lot of low tempo sailing focusing on the basics makes sense. Also lots of fun port visits within a week or two to help a boat full of junior people on OJT to build some early and positive port visit memories so not a bad thing for retention etc.
I'm sure part of the issue was also the barber pole folks being upset that they would be the training fleet this time...
 

Canadian Frigate Destroys Target in Joint U.S.-Navy Littoral Missile Shoot​




Interesting piece about Regina firing successfully at Harpoon II missile but also the part I've snipped out below about crewing numbers -

Regina’s crew averages 167 but nearly maxed out its berthing with 236 for the missile exercise. The crew routinely trains for missions involving humanitarian aid, disaster relief and search and rescue, said Chief Petty Officer First Class Timothy King, the senior enlisted sailor and equivalent to a command master chief.

Seems that the CPF are out there with alot less crew members than the 215-225 that they are typically allocated. That's less than 3X the crew on an AOPS.

Also, the bit below about ASW work.

“Harpoon, we don’t fire often,” King said. “We’re more of a support role and a first-line defense against submarines… That’s the bread and butter.”

Lt. Cmdr. George “Scott” Dyson, Regina executive officer, said the frigate is optimized for anti-submarine warfare.

“If you add us to an American task group, you get a ship that’s not so super awesome at shooting down aircraft,” Dyson said, “but we’re good at hunting and fighting submarines.”

King noted that Canadian patrol frigates routinely are invited to the Navy submarine commander’s course in Hawaii to give submarine commanders practice evading detection.

“We’re a more frustrating opponent. I mean, they still kill us all the time,” said Dyson. Los Angeles or Virginia-class U.S. submarines they encounter during training are “formidable opponents. They make us put the ship through the full envelope of its capabilities.”

Maybe we should keep the sensors and main gun after retirement and transfer them to the Kingston replacement. The Finnish corvette sounds like an excellent design.
 
IMG_2443.png Further reading in that USNI article has Dave Mazur ruminating about sending AOPS to the Indo Pacific region…
 
Sending a non-helo capable icebreaker, that has no sensors to the Indo Pacific reeks of quiet desparation. Hopefully they would tell us 'no thanks'
Depends on what capabilities are added for the sail. Not all ops require every ship to be a warship.
 
Depends on what capabilities are added for the sail. Not all ops require every ship to be a warship.
Sure, but if China decided to show a presence off the coast of North America with a non-combatant, we'd probably be laughing at them. Sending a icebreaker to do ops in a pretty hot area of the planet to show the flag would send a worse message politically than not sending anything, and they could frankly be doing something more useful close to home.

Would be a cool sail for the crew though.
 
Sure, but if China decided to show a presence off the coast of North America with a non-combatant, we'd probably be laughing at them. Sending a icebreaker to do ops in a pretty hot area of the planet to show the flag would send a worse message politically than not sending anything, and they could frankly be doing something more useful close to home.

Would be a cool sail for the crew though.
don't they already? Their fishing fleet and factory ships are everywhere.
 
don't they already? Their fishing fleet and factory ships are everywhere.

"fishing fleet" "factory ships"

Yea Right GIF
 

Trump plans to rebuild the US Navy in Korean shipyards. We already know this works well​

It’s time to give up trying to revive dead builders and just get some ships

09 January 2025 3:04pm GMT

Getting our warships and maritime weapons from overseas, as a reality, has been around for a long time. It’s tempting to imagine some halcyon era when we built everything ourselves and luxuriated in the security-of-supply and job creation implicit in doing so. In reality, this has rarely been the case.

As far back as the Tudor era we occasionally acquired ships from foreign shipyards, particularly in France, Spain and the Low Countries (modern-day Netherlands and Belgium) who were renowned for advanced shipbuilding techniques. In the 17th century we turned to Dutch expertise for certain specialised vessels and by the 18th and 19th we were making full use of our colonies. During the Napoleonic wars, most Royal Navy officers considered that captured French and Spanish ships were better than British-built ones – and there were certainly enough in the RN for them to know.

Likewise with weapons. In the 18th century the Swedes in particular, and the Dutch, both made excellent cannons which we used against all comers. In the Second World War half the fleet had Swedish Bofors guns and the Lend-Lease Act saw huge supplies of almost everything from the US. This has been followed by perhaps the meatiest weapons collaboration to date, the Trident D5 Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile. There are many other examples: today’s Type 45 destroyers, though notionally British built, fire French-made missiles using a mostly French and Italian combat system which runs, of course, on American software.

In simplistic terms, when making these decisions there is a trade-off between organic control, security and UK jobs at one end of the spectrum vs the pace and cost benefits of buying ‘off the shelf’ at the other. The effectiveness of the ship or system should dominate the discussion but often doesn’t feature at all.

Problems occur, though, when the place on the spectrum is selected for political, not military, expedience. Here the debate gets emotional, particularly when Ministers and Admirals want different things, which of course they often do. The prospect of manufacturing jobs in Britain now, often regardless of how few and short-lived they may be, generally overrides any considerations of cost, capability and delay.

In the US this tension also exists even though in recent history they have often had the infrastructure, industrial capacity and money to go it alone. When they have imported a design, such as the much loved Knox class (based on the Italian Lupo) and now the Constellation class (based on the French and Italian Fregate Europeenne Multi-Mission – FREMM – design), they have always built it in the US.

As an aside, the Constellation class is a live case study in what happens if you select a foreign design and then meddle with it. It is now estimated that 85 per cent of the Constellation design is different to the FREMM, undoing any savings in cost and time and throwing away most of the guarantees of capability and reliability. President-elect Trump commented on it this week, saying, “people playing around and tinkering and changing the design… they’re not smart and they take something and they make it worse for a lot more money”. Given how the Franken-FREMM is taking shape, this is actually quite polite.

Much of Trump’s interview was in response to the Congressional Budget Office’s “analysis of the Navy’s 2025 shipbuilding plan” which outlined the following key points:

First, the 2025 plan increases shipbuilding costs by 46 per cent annually in real terms compared to recent averages. The CBO estimates $40 billion yearly over 30 years, 17 per cent above Navy projections, with the total budget rising from $255 billion to $340 billion by 2054.

Second, the fleet would decrease to 283 ships by 2027 before growing to 390 by 2054 from the current 295. The Navy will buy 364 new ships, focusing on current generation and smaller vessels. Firepower will dip initially but increase as the fleet expands.

Third, a significant increase in the size of the industrial base, especially for nuclear submarines, is required.

So: can’t afford the plan, will reduce in size and lethality in the short term, major industrial expansion is required to reverse this decline.
This makes for difficult reading for two reasons. First, it is clear the US cannot scale up its shipyards as it needs to on any reasonable time scale: it cannot even fully staff its existing yards, let alone open new ones. Second, you could change dollars and pounds and reduce the numbers (a lot) and a report on the Royal Navy would say almost the same.

Trump carries on in the same interview saying, “We’re going to be announcing some things that are going to be very good having to do with the Navy. We need ships. We have to get ships… We may have to go to others, bid them out, and it’s okay to do that. We’ll bid them out until we get ourselves ready”.

Looking for signs as to what he meant by ‘others’ and ‘bid them out’, many have looked to South Korea based on something he said last November shortly after being elected. “The US shipbuilding industry needs South Korea’s help and cooperation. We are aware of Korea’s construction capabilities and should cooperate with Korea in repair and maintenance. I want to talk more specifically in this area.”

As if to show the Trump effect, just the hint was enough to see Korean ship builders Hanwha Ocean and HJ Shipbuilding & Construction stock prices showing strong gains on the day (10 and 15 percent) while the shares of Hyundai’s shipbuilding subsidiaries and Samsung Heavy Industries increased a little (three percent).

It’s also not clear if he was referring to warships or support vessels but either way, South Korea has pedigree. He could certainly use them to build ships for the Military Sealift Command – the US equivalent of our Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Fleet auxiliaries aren’t as complicated to build as warships, though more so than most kinds of commercial shipping. But Korean yards have also produced some very complex warships, including ones carrying the powerful US-made Aegis combat system – the gold standard of warship technology.

Korea, as it happens, built our RFA Tide-class tankers back in 2017. At c £500 million for four ships, no one else could compete. The build wasn’t quite flawless but the cost and time overruns were the smallest in living memory, by a very large margin. If we had placed follow-on orders for the planned Fleet Solid Support (FSS) ships right away we would have three of them at sea by now and this year’s Royal Navy carrier strike group deployment would not be dependent on a Norwegian support ship, as it is.

Instead, it was decided to award the solid support ships contract to a hybrid venture combining Spain’s Navantia – a real working shipbuilder – and Belfast’s moribund Harland & Wolff yard, which hadn’t actually built a ship for many years. This scheme has been beset with issues, not least of which has been the closure of Harland and Wolff. The end result is three ships to be in service – maybe – by 2032 at roughly the same cost per vessel as the entire Tide class.

Jobs win over cost and delay, again.

With two new classes of frigate, the last of our attack submarines and a new class of deterrent submarine in build, the Royal Navy’s warship build programme is strong. But the existing yards, like those of the US, are at capacity and we need the replacement destroyers (Type 83) and new amphibious ships (MRSS) as a matter of urgency. There are no firm plans for these ships yet, and we could also do with a new batch of patrol vessels (whose value for money is hard to overstate). If these things must be built in Britain we will have an awfully long wait for them. Harland & Wolff, and the equally disastrous case of Swan Hunter and the Bay class back in the noughties, shows us that we cannot realistically expand our shipyards any more than America can.

Donald Trump has the right idea. We need similar thinking here: it’s time to start spending our defence money on defence, not on doomed job-creation schemes. It’s probably worth noting here that the idea that manufacturing industry is a good way to create large numbers of jobs is very, very out of date. Consider this: Hyundai Heavy Industries’ shipbuilding division in South Korea is the biggest shipbuilder in the world. It produces most classes of warship, including submarines, as well as huge tonnages of commercial vessels. It has around 14,000 employees. This is actually fewer people than work in the shipbuilding divisions of BAE Systems plc, which are only capable of producing sharply limited numbers of warships and auxiliaries, very slowly and expensively.

Heavy engineering is simply no longer a jobs bonanza, not if it’s going to be competitive.

We need, like Trump, to start placing our shipbuilding orders with ‘effect’ – numbers of ships for our money, the capability of them, and arrival as soon as possible – as the priority. And as Trump has realised, that’s going to mean placing the orders in Korea or other overseas yards.

Korean yards - building, at very least, "simple" Fleet Support Ships, "simple" Multi Role Support Ships (amphibs) and "simple" Patrol Vessels ((whose value for money is hard to overstate)).

Korean yards - refurbished the SeaSpan yards and purchased the Aker yards in Philadelphia.

....

So much to unpack -

RN Officer (ret'd) calling for more ships.
RN Officer (ret'd) suggesting that Trump might be right.
RN Officer (ret'd) calling for foreign built ships.
Calling for MRSS to be built fast even if they have to be built over seas
Calling for more "Patrol Vessells whose value for money is hard to overstate" (The Brits are sailing those vessels in contested waters globally)

Trump the Isolationist. Trump of the Tariffs. MAGA Trump contemplating spending money overseas to meet an immediate demand (and concurrently putting pressure on his native defence industry to do a rethink on their sugardaddy).

...

Canadian context

Tariffs - he is open for negotiation.
Ice-breakers are currency - we make ships his coast guard can use (unfortunately the Finns and Norwegians make them cheaper and faster)
Patrol vessels are within our competency.
Our western yard has associations with both the Finns and the Koreans - and a government contract to build hulls for the Canadian Coast Guard that are similar in class to the AOPS hulls built in Halifax.

...

A bright PM, of any party, should have enough cards in his hand to make a decent play in Trump's world.
 
Canada has just built 6x PC5/4 icebreakers with 2 more under construction

Finalizing plans on 2 x PC 2 icebreakers with test modules being built

Finalizing plans on 16 x PC 4 icebreakers with test modules being built

Planning underway for a number of PC 3 icebreakers

When complete Canada will have one of the biggest and most capable fleet of icebreakers in the world.
 
Canada has just built 6x PC5/4 icebreakers with 2 more under construction

Finalizing plans on 2 x PC 2 icebreakers with test modules being built

Finalizing plans on 16 x PC 4 icebreakers with test modules being built

Planning underway for a number of PC 3 icebreakers

When complete Canada will have one of the biggest and most capable fleet of icebreakers in the world.

This is great. We should have been doing this since the 50s. And arm the shit out of them. CCG get on board or go find another job.
 
And arm the shit out of them.
Why waste the money? By their very nature, ice breakers are big, fat, slow targets and would last about 10 minutes against a well armed Coastal patrol vessel or a couple of Ukraine's drones. Spend your money for arms on warships worthy of the name warship imho
 
Canada has just built 6x PC5/4 icebreakers with 2 more under construction

Finalizing plans on 2 x PC 2 icebreakers with test modules being built

Finalizing plans on 16 x PC 4 icebreakers with test modules being built

Planning underway for a number of PC 3 icebreakers

When complete Canada will have one of the biggest and most capable fleet of icebreakers in the world.
1736530157295.png

16 MPV PC4 for the CCG to replace the 10 light icebreakers
2 heavies PC2 to replace the 2 "heavies" we have now
6 medium PC3 to replace the 7 mediums we have now incl the Resolute class
adds up to 24 not 25?
at the time i guess there were 4 AOPS built and 4 to be built for a total of 8 PC5+


1736530316892.png

from
 
Why waste the money? By their very nature, ice breakers are big, fat, slow targets and would last about 10 minutes against a well armed Coastal patrol vessel or a couple of Ukraine's drones. Spend your money for arms on warships worthy of the name warship imho

Add drones to any vessel...

Some could be rocket-launched.
 
This is great. We should have been doing this since the 50s. And arm the shit out of them. CCG get on board or go find another job.
CCG does have other jobs:

Ice breaking in the rivers, great lakes and making sure the Arctic Sealift get through

Buoy tending on 3 coasts, rivers, Great Lakes and some inland waters

Navaids construction and maintenance

SAR on all 3 coasts and on some inland waters

Marine Communications and Traffic Services

Marine Emergency Response for oil spills

Fisheries research

Fishery patrol and enforcement

Science research

Boating safety
 
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