New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Slow news week-end, JMC? That is exactly what is happening: Seaspan got a contract Friday to build a Polar 2 icebreaker, and Davie got a contract Saturday to build the second one.

 

[calculus]

Slow news week-end, JMC? That is exactly what is happening: Seaspan got a contract Friday to build a Polar 2 icebreaker, and Davie got a contract Saturday to build the second one.

I read @JMCanada's comment as being Davie should build a second Polar Max, in addition to the one just contracted. Two in total. Great idea.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Could be. I didn' t read it as that. My bad!

 

[JMCanada]

Sorry, I was not clear.

Edited: (my previous reply was long and even more confusing)

I was replying to Suffolkowner, so I suggested 2+2 (as he did), each yard building their own class, not as before when I (and some others) assumed same class being built in different shipyards, which is inefficient.

In my mind Arpatuuk was second in the class.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yes a second arpatuuk should be built at seaspan and a second polar max at Davie.

If needed.

What are the ccg needs?

Perhaps after running the two ships for a few years they will have a better idea of the strengths and weaknesses

Seaspan has lots of work in front of it as well

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yes a second arpatuuk should be built at seaspan and a second polar max at Davie.

If needed.

What are the ccg needs?

Perhaps after running the two ships for a few years they will have a better idea of the strengths and weaknesses

Seaspan has lots of work in front of it as well

The Multirole CCG ships will replace the 1100 Class and will be twice the tonnage and better ice class. In fact the CCG might actually find they need a few smaller buoytenders to get into places the bigger ships can't. At some point you will want to replace the AP1-88/400 Hovercraft, with newer versions of them with 4 for the west and east coast. and likley 2 more for the Arctic. That will mean a hanger, apron, accommodations up North. Rotate crews in during the open water seasons and slowly buildup the skillsets to have them manned and maintained by Northerners.

 

[Lumber]

So, I'm not sure if the Davie part of this is a sudden new thing or just the next phase of CCG part of NSPS that's been well established but that Id just never heard of, but it got me thinking. We should (Canada) go all in on shipbuilding for this reason: if there is a full scale war in the pacific with China, then the shipyards in east Asia will be some of the earliest targets hit. Ships yards on the west coast of NA could well come later. You know what's really hard to hit from China, or even by PLA(N) SSGNs parked of the pacific coast if NA? The EAST coast of NA. Pitch to pacific nations that a bunch of shipyards along the St. Lawrence River would be a strategically "safe" asset.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Some more technical bits on the new icebreakers

Three remarkable icebreaker contracts | Aker Arctic

During the past three months, three polar icebreakers have been contracted for construction around the world. They all feature Aker Arctic’s patented Hybrid DAS™ propulsion configuration.

akerarctic.fi

 

[Czech_pivo]

So the Germans, a non-arctic nation, are building a PC2 ship, larger in length (not sure about tonnage) than both polar class ships than we are, an arctic nation. And they are doing it for science research - not because of protecting national sovereignty or the economic well-being of its northern citizenships, for science.

Some more technical bits on the new icebreakers

Three remarkable icebreaker contracts | Aker Arctic

During the past three months, three polar icebreakers have been contracted for construction around the world. They all feature Aker Arctic’s patented Hybrid DAS™ propulsion configuration.

akerarctic.fi

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Length is not always good. CCG icebreakers have to manoeuvre around icebound vessels and also operate in the Gulf of St Lawrence when not in the Arctic.

 

[Underway]

Few thoughts.

Davie can beat the Seaspan timeline for a few reasons. First is that their build isn't as complicated as the Seapan one. Second they don't have any of their workforce diverted to building other ships (just converting) like JSS, JSS2, OOSV and somesuch. Which means Davie can start right now. Third, yes having Finland in their pocket is extremely helpful, not only because a third of it being built overseas reduces timelines by (does math) a third at least, having the Finish expertise to show them the way will reduce mistakes, do overs and design time.

I'm ok with Davie showing some icebreaking competition. Our full suite of ship requirements for the governement fleets cannot be done by only two yards unfortunately, this speeds things up significantly.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I would also give Davie a contract to build around 3-4 x 1600 DWTish PC 5 Buoy Tenders, these would fill the gap for buoy tending services between the Hovercrafts and the new Multipurpose vessels (8,000DWT). Two on the East Coast, perhaps one on the lakes and one on the West Coast. That would free up the big ships to do more Arctic stuff and offshore and these would be more coastal. They be a direct replacement for these vessels:

CCGS Bartlett - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Underway]

So my next question is the Canadian Patrol Corvettes are going to be built by who? Irving has not capacity, Seapan is busy for years that leaves... Davie or smaller yards in Ontario. Or perhaps a combo of them.

Or we go overseas and do it Dutch style, combat systems in Canada, hulls from Romania/ Korea

 

[PrairieFella]

I'm a complete outsider to anything naval and live about as far away from the E/W Coast as possible. That said, I'm getting the impression this is a real good time to be in the RCN or CCG, there seem to be new ships, new projects and new capabilities every month these days. Is this accurate? This forum can be a bit of a downer (and rightfully so) so it'd be nice to readsome positivity for a change haha. Navy folk, what's your impression of what's going in your sphere?

 

[Underway]

I'm a complete outsider to anything naval and live about as far away from the E/W Coast as possible. That said, I'm getting the impression this is a real good time to be in the RCN or CCG, there seem to be new ships, new projects and new capabilities every month these days. Is this accurate? This forum can be a bit of a downer (and rightfully so) so it'd be nice to readsome positivity for a change haha. Navy folk, what's your impression of what's going in your sphere?

Its not a good time and it is a good time. We're in transition similar to the 90's.

The Frigates and subs are really hard to keep going. Like an old junker car that you can't get rid of just yet. And that's eating up a lot of the RCN's bandwidth right now. They are the fighting arm of the RCN. So its a downer for a lot of sailors.

However the AOPS sailors LOVE those ships, despite their teething issues. They are doing interesting stuff with them and the platforms generally are overperforming expectations in a number of important categories (range, seakeeping, flexibility).

JSS is set to arrive soon as well, and that will be another capability change that will shake up the RCN. Hopefully its as well recieved if not better than the AOPS.

The new sub program if its this year (I expect it will be) will be a huge shot in the arm for the service. No one really believes it will happen despite the very strong indications that it will.

But those frigates, they are a millstone around our neck right now, and its going to be a while before we can fully work our way through that.

 

[PrairieFella]

Its not a good time and it is a good time. We're in transition similar to the 90's.

The Frigates and subs are really hard to keep going. Like an old junker car that you can't get rid of just yet. And that's eating up a lot of the RCN's bandwidth right now. They are the fighting arm of the RCN. So its a downer for a lot of sailors.

However the AOPS sailors LOVE those ships, despite their teething issues. They are doing interesting stuff with them and the platforms generally are overperforming expectations in a number of important categories (range, seakeeping, flexibility).

JSS is set to arrive soon as well, and that will be another capability change that will shake up the RCN. Hopefully its as well recieved if not better than the AOPS.

The new sub program if its this year (I expect it will be) will be a huge shot in the arm for the service. No one really believes it will happen despite the very strong indications that it will.

But those frigates, they are a millstone around our neck right now, and its going to be a while before we can fully work our way through that.

Thanks for the perspective. So I suppose it'd be more accurate to say "it WILL be a good time for the RCN and CCG"

 

[Navy_Pete]

Few thoughts.

Davie can beat the Seaspan timeline for a few reasons. First is that their build isn't as complicated as the Seapan one. Second they don't have any of their workforce diverted to building other ships (just converting) like JSS, JSS2, OOSV and somesuch. Which means Davie can start right now. Third, yes having Finland in their pocket is extremely helpful, not only because a third of it being built overseas reduces timelines by (does math) a third at least, having the Finish expertise to show them the way will reduce mistakes, do overs and design time.

I'm ok with Davie showing some icebreaking competition. Our full suite of ship requirements for the governement fleets cannot be done by only two yards unfortunately, this speeds things up significantly.

Not necessarily; Davie is running pretty full out doing the DWP, and needs to retool a bit to build the icebreakers that size efficiently.

VSY and VSL are different yards at different locations, so Seaspan isn't splitting resources between build and DWPs.

The Polar icebreakers have also been on the go for a while at Seaspan so things like produciton engineering and planning is already progress, while Davie would be starting from scratch, so lots of things Davie is working against but none of that makes good soundbites.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Seaspan is well ahead of Davie

Polar icebreaker being built by Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards

The polar icebreaker being built by Seaspan is based on a design that was provided by the Government of Canada. The shipyard has taken that design and matured it through construction engineering towards a production-ready design to build the vessel.

Before starting full construction on the polar icebreaker, Seaspan built a prototype block to test the new processes and tools required to work with the ship’s specialized steel. The prototype block was designed to include the most complex steel structures and welding requirements involved in building the polar icebreaker. It was completed in February 2024.

 

[suffolkowner]

So my next question is the Canadian Patrol Corvettes are going to be built by who? Irving has not capacity, Seapan is busy for years that leaves... Davie or smaller yards in Ontario. Or perhaps a combo of them.

Or we go overseas and do it Dutch style, combat systems in Canada, hulls from Romania/ Korea

do we have the capacity to do that from a time/personnel standpoint?

Daegu-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hulls built in SK. Move a certain amount of systems over from the Halifax class?

3-6 Hulls. Pay off the worst of the Halifax class

Heddle/Davie/Vard can build a more of a direct replacement for the Kingstons.

 

[NavyShooter]

How would we move them from Saskatche....oh....sorry.