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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
Yes Canada's ice breaking fleet is going to be pretty amazing and Russia is struggling to finish their P2220 Class to replace their older heavy icebreakers. I have to chuckle at US claims about the importance of the Arctic, when you look at the state of their icebreaking fleet.
 
Looking forward to the first complete block

 
This is the Seaspan press release for the awarding of the Polar Class Icebreaker, gleam from it what you will, they are claiming they are going to build 21 Icebreakers for the CCG, my guess is the PR person likley included the 4 non-icebreakers for the CCG they have already built.

According to this, they have cut steel on this ship, which is a pretty significant milestone:

 
I think there is a fundamental difference you need to consider with the USCG; they are part of the US military, are fully armed and forward deploy warships places like the gulf to protect the USN and do similar ops to what we do with the RCN.
Sorry for the late arrival on this.

The USCG isn’t part of DoD, and hasn’t been since 9/11 stood up DHS. The USCG is a branch of DHS like ICE, HSI and CBP. Even before the formation of DHS the USCG was a muddled entity, part of DoD but also not due to constitutional limitations.

The USCG has LE Dets that conduct law enforcement activities as Federal LE under the DHS mandate. The Law Enforcement Detachments are the ones that conduct boardings and LE activities within the US boundary as Posse Comitatus Act forbids the usage of US military personnel for domestic LE roles/tasks.

During a war (as declared by Congress) control of the USCG falls under the USN and they become effectively a branch of the US Military, but the LE Det’s remain Federal LE.
 
Sorry for the late arrival on this.

The USCG isn’t part of DoD, and hasn’t been since 9/11 stood up DHS. The USCG is a branch of DHS like ICE, HSI and CBP. Even before the formation of DHS the USCG was a muddled entity, part of DoD but also not due to constitutional limitations.

The USCG has LE Dets that conduct law enforcement activities as Federal LE under the DHS mandate. The Law Enforcement Detachments are the ones that conduct boardings and LE activities within the US boundary as Posse Comitatus Act forbids the usage of US military personnel for domestic LE roles/tasks.

During a war (as declared by Congress) control of the USCG falls under the USN and they become effectively a branch of the US Military, but the LE Det’s remain Federal LE.
Also the only US federal agency that can respond directly to a disaster without the request of a State Governor. The other US forces like to make fun of the USCG, but I find that the average US citizen holds them in high regard, and from my experience with them that regard is well deserved. Their Lifeboat crews are second to none and are sort of a Guard within the the Guard.
 
Also the only US federal agency that can respond directly to a disaster without the request of a State Governor. The other US forces like to make fun of the USCG, but I find that the average US citizen holds them in high regard, and from my experience with them that regard is well deserved. Their Lifeboat crews are second to none and are sort of a Guard within the the Guard.
While everyone loves to pick on them, they have a lot of unique capabilities, from HITRON to their Rescue Swimmers, as well as a fair decent Naval capability to that exceeds many medium countries in terms of capabilities, and a larger Maritime Helicopter community than most countries entire rotary wing fleets.
 
My guess is that lobby groups in the US will work hard to sink this deal, does not matter if they can't deliver, but they don't want to share their pie.

 
My guess is that lobby groups in the US will work hard to sink this deal, does not matter if they can't deliver, but they don't want to share their pie.


They don't want an AOPs ?
 
My guess is that lobby groups in the US will work hard to sink this deal, does not matter if they can't deliver, but they don't want to share their pie.

That actually works in our geopolitical favour in a number of ways. US wants continental defence, and they can't provide it up north. The longer they take to sort out their icebreaker situation the better position we are as we'll be more icebreaker heavy, more ice operations, more understanding of what's going on, and helping out Alaska with various problems.
 
Sorry for the late arrival on this.

The USCG isn’t part of DoD, and hasn’t been since 9/11 stood up DHS. The USCG is a branch of DHS like ICE, HSI and CBP. Even before the formation of DHS the USCG was a muddled entity, part of DoD but also not due to constitutional limitations.

The USCG has LE Dets that conduct law enforcement activities as Federal LE under the DHS mandate. The Law Enforcement Detachments are the ones that conduct boardings and LE activities within the US boundary as Posse Comitatus Act forbids the usage of US military personnel for domestic LE roles/tasks.

During a war (as declared by Congress) control of the USCG falls under the USN and they become effectively a branch of the US Military, but the LE Det’s remain Federal LE.

How does DHS liaise with Northern Command? I thought that Northern Command relied on the USCG as its "Navy". And the Air Force National Guard is the air component.
 
How does DHS liaise with Northern Command? I thought that Northern Command relied on the USCG as its "Navy". And the Air Force National Guard is the air component.
DHS has liaisons in various DoD HQ’s just like DoD has some in DHS.

I have no direct knowledge of exactly how the USCG interacts outside of the LEO mission. The LE Det activities are handled by DHS, as the USN cannot board vessels inside CONUS waters. In terms of how the cutters are handled, your guess is as good as mine.

The Air Guard is different as for it’s not separated from the regular USAF as it goes for active aircraft responding, as they aren’t responding in a LE role.
 
US is finally getting serious on building a icebreaker replacement

 
Rumour has it that the unfunded dream Corvette program has been renamed again.

Continental Defence Corvette.

IMHO it boxes the program in a bit more from the Canadian Multi Mission Corvette. And that's not a bad thing. It creates an obvious circle around the mission sets and size of the ship. From which follows range, endurance, sensors and crews. Which should reduce scope creep. (no LCS issues with to many missions for small platform and crew).

Stating it out loud that these are home game ships, and are designed as such. Whereas the RCD's are the away game ships.

For refresher the last information stated,

Under 105m long
Crew of 40
Strike length VLS
Single sonar
Full networking with offboard sensors.

Basically networked ships that all carry big AAW missiles to shoot stuff detected by other effectors or each other. I expect this would be considered a continental task group concept (3-4 CDC's plus submarine plus MPA/AEW) vs the expeditionary task group concept (4 RCD's, 1 JSS, embarked air dets, submarine optional).

At some point we're gonna have to create a different thread for this. Maybe when there is an official announcement.
 
Rumour has it that the unfunded dream Corvette program has been renamed again.

Continental Defence Corvette.

IMHO it boxes the program in a bit more from the Canadian Multi Mission Corvette. And that's not a bad thing. It creates an obvious circle around the mission sets and size of the ship. From which follows range, endurance, sensors and crews. Which should reduce scope creep. (no LCS issues with to many missions for small platform and crew).

Stating it out loud that these are home game ships, and are designed as such. Whereas the RCD's are the away game ships.

For refresher the last information stated,

Under 105m long
Crew of 40
Strike length VLS
Single sonar
Full networking with offboard sensors.

Basically networked ships that all carry big AAW missiles to shoot stuff detected by other effectors or each other. I expect this would be considered a continental task group concept (3-4 CDC's plus submarine plus MPA/AEW) vs the expeditionary task group concept (4 RCD's, 1 JSS, embarked air dets, submarine optional).

At some point we're gonna have to create a different thread for this. Maybe when there is an official announcement.
I'm wondering if the "Continental" part of the "Continental Defence Corvette" refers to the proposed idea of using these ships as a networked ABM platform rather than them being "home game" rather than "away game" ships. No doubt, if that's the case they wouldn't necessarily require extended range or endurance for the North American ABM role, but to be honest I question the logic of that role.

The Strike length VLS is presumably so that the CDC can launch the SM-3 missile for the ABM role - which would have to be guided by the Aegis system on an accompanying River-class Destroyer. The likelihood of an enemy surface fleet approaching the coast of North America in the face of the USAF, and USN submarines and surface ships is in my opinion extremely low so the the Strike-length VLS wouldn't be intended for Tomahawks or LRASM's.

This is where the logic breaks down for me. The SM-3 is design and optimized for intercepting Short to Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM/IRBM) but have extremely limited against Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs). From Chatgpt:

The SM-3 (Standard Missile-3) is primarily designed to intercept short- to intermediate-range ballistic missiles (SRBMs and IRBMs) during the midcourse phase of flight. However, its effectiveness against intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) is limited and conditional.


Key Points:​


✅ What SM-3 Can Do:​


  • The SM-3 Block IIA variant has demonstrated some capability to intercept ICBMs in test scenarios.
  • In November 2020, during a test dubbed FTM-44, an SM-3 Block IIA missile launched from an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) ship successfully intercepted a target representing an ICBM.
  • The Block IIA has a larger rocket motor and improved kinetic warhead, allowing it to reach higher altitudes and faster speeds than earlier models.

❌ Limitations:​


  • ICBMs are much faster (reentry speeds of ~7 km/s or more) than the targets SM-3 was originally designed for (~3-4 km/s).
  • ICBM intercepts are extremely challenging due to:
    • Higher speeds
    • Decoys and countermeasures
    • Global trajectory and limited engagement window
  • The SM-3 is not currently deployed as a primary defense against ICBMs—that role is filled by systems like the Ground-based Midcourse Defense (GMD).

Strategic Context:​


  • The U.S. Missile Defense Review (2019) acknowledged the SM-3 Block IIA’s "potential" to defend against ICBMs, but emphasized it's not a replacement for systems like GMD.
  • Using SM-3s against ICBMs would likely only be viable in limited scenarios (e.g., from North Korea with a small number of missiles, and in coordination with other systems).



Summary:​


  • SM-3 Block IIA has demonstrated some potential against ICBMs, but it is not a reliable or primary defense against them.
  • It’s best suited for regional missile defense against short- and medium-range threats.
  • For full ICBM protection, systems like GMD and future technologies (like NGI – Next Generation Interceptor) are critical.

🧪 Test Evidence:​


  • FTM-44 (Nov 2020): An SM-3 Block IIA launched from USS John Finn successfully intercepted a target ICBM-type missile in space.
    • This was the first and only publicly known successful ICBM-type intercept by a Standard Missile.
    • Target simulated a "simple" ICBM—no complex countermeasures.



🚫 Limitations:​


  • ICBMs travel too fast (~7+ km/s) and may deploy multiple warheads and decoys, making interception by the SM-3 IIA difficult.
  • The SM-3 is not integrated into the Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD) system, which remains the main U.S. defense against ICBMs.
  • Deployment location matters: SM-3s are deployed on Aegis ships or Aegis Ashore sites, and their positioning may not always provide the needed geometry or reaction time for high-speed ICBM threats.
So, given their limited usefulness against ICBMs (and the fact that they are unlikely to be positioned in the Arctic along the most likely route of Russian ICBMs) then presumably they would be intended to intercept short/intermediate range ballistic missiles launched from submarines approaching our coasts against North America.

If enemy subs were to launch such an attack I'm fairly confident that NORAD would likely classify it as a potential first-strike, decapitation attack and would respond with a nuclear counter-strike. I'm sure that the Russians and Chinese know this and for that reason wouldn't launch a conventional ballistic missile strike against North America for fear of such a response. So if the sub-launched strikes were rather part of a larger, full-scale nuclear strike against North America then shooting down a handful of SRBM/IRBM's launched from subs would likely do nothing more than bounce the rubble created by the massive ICBM strikes.

Where anti-SRBM/IRBM capability WOULD be quite useful would be in an expeditionary conflict in the Pacific, or the Persian (er, Arabian) Gulf, the Red Sea, etc. where these types of conventional missiles could quite possibly be used against Canadian or allied ships. However for the CDC to be useful in those situation it would have to have the range and endurance that is not in the design. Same with having the Strike-length VLS launched Tomahawk and LRASM missiles.

Frankly, the whole program doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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