New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[FSTO]

.

Give me two pieces of factual evidence that Oriole contributes to CAF readiness.

same amount as the GG Foot Guards or the Snow Birds?

 

[Stoker]

Bearing the limited training area in mind, a return to the West Coast and some sort of cost- and time-sharing arrangement with CJCR would be interesting.

Plenty of expenditures CJCR-side that provide less value than, basically, buying whatever Oriole time the Navy doesn't want.

The agreement at the time was a swap sending Tuna out west to operate alongside Goldcrest. As Oriole was in pretty shit state when she arrived from the West Coast, I doubt if they'll be sending her back out there. The best anyone should hope is selling her to an interested party and wash their hands of her.

 

[dapaterson]

same amount as the GG Foot Guards or the Snow Birds?

Precisely. I would can those as well.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wrt the Oriole, that is funded out of the very limited pot of money left over once the submarines, CPFs, and now AOPs get money for maintenance. Available funding has been smaller than real demand for at least 15 years, so there is both an acute and cumulative effect of continuing to maintain it that has directly and indirectly impacted capabilities.

It has directly gotten funding that would have otherwise gone towards MCDVs, tugs, barges, dive tenders and other support vessels that directly support actual operational capabilities.

It also came up on top of needing a major refit at the cost of several million dollars to bring it up to basic SOLAS requiremetns the same time as CFAV Quests needed a DWP to stay operational, so we lost one of the quietest ships on the planet that did a lot of unique research for some Admirals pet yacht.

I hope the Oriole is disposed of with cleansing fire, on land, maybe after some time getting crapped on by enough seagulls that it becomes a hazmat zone, and smolders into an embarassing remnant of poor decisions and wasted time and effort.

 

[dapaterson]

Wrt the Oriole, that is funded out of the very limited pot of money left over once the submarines, CPFs, and now AOPs get money for maintenance. Available funding has been smaller than real demand for at least 15 years, so there is both an acute and cumulative effect of continuing to maintain it that has directly and indirectly impacted capabilities.

It has directly gotten funding that would have otherwise gone towards MCDVs, tugs, barges, dive tenders and other support vessels that directly support actual operational capabilities.

It also came up on top of needing a major refit at the cost of several million dollars to bring it up to basic SOLAS requiremetns the same time as CFAV Quests needed a DWP to stay operational, so we lost one of the quietest ships on the planet that did a lot of unique research for some Admirals pet yacht.

I hope the Oriole is disposed of with cleansing fire, on land, maybe after some time getting crapped on by enough seagulls that it becomes a hazmat zone, and smolders into an embarassing remnant of poor decisions and wasted time and effort.

... or put a piano on board and let the air det have a mess dinner...

 

[Underway]

Give me two pieces of factual evidence that Oriole contributes to CAF readiness.

Sure. It's a cheaper platform to operate than the Orcas that allows sailors to develop multiple seamanship skills. Many Reqs early training packages get signed off. Navigation, seamanship, watch rotations, safety.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wrt the Oriole, that is funded out of the very limited pot of money left over once the submarines, CPFs, and now AOPs get money for maintenance. Available funding has been smaller than real demand for at least 15 years, so there is both an acute and cumulative effect of continuing to maintain it that has directly and indirectly impacted capabilities.

It has directly gotten funding that would have otherwise gone towards MCDVs, tugs, barges, dive tenders and other support vessels that directly support actual operational capabilities.

It also came up on top of needing a major refit at the cost of several million dollars to bring it up to basic SOLAS requiremetns the same time as CFAV Quests needed a DWP to stay operational, so we lost one of the quietest ships on the planet that did a lot of unique research for some Admirals pet yacht.

I hope the Oriole is disposed of with cleansing fire, on land, maybe after some time getting crapped on by enough seagulls that it becomes a hazmat zone, and smolders into an embarassing remnant of poor decisions and wasted time and effort.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sure. It's a cheaper platform to operate than the Orcas that allows sailors to develop multiple seamanship skills. Many Reqs early training packages get signed off. Navigation, seamanship, watch rotations, safety.

I don't think that's actually true; I ran the numbers a long time ago using the cost factors manual parameters and the actual cost per sea day of the Oriole was much higher than the Orcas (was something like 3ish times). It needs a fair bit of maintenance and is pretty limited when it can sail, and the training on the Orcas is much more relevant to actual platforms we operate.

 

[dapaterson]

I don't think that's actually true; I ran the numbers a long time ago using the cost factors manual parameters and the actual cost per sea day of the Oriole was much higher than the Orcas (was something like 3ish times). It needs a fair bit of maintenance and is pretty limited when it can sail, and the training on the Orcas is much more relevant to actual platforms we operate.

The RCN is too important to be left to the whins of the NWOs...

 

[FSTO]

The RCN is too important to be left to the whins of the NWOs...

Did you mean to say whines?

 

[dapaterson]

Did you mean to say whines?

Whims, whines...

 

[Underway]

I don't think that's actually true; I ran the numbers a long time ago using the cost factors manual parameters and the actual cost per sea day of the Oriole was much higher than the Orcas (was something like 3ish times). It needs a fair bit of maintenance and is pretty limited when it can sail, and the training on the Orcas is much more relevant to actual platforms we operate.

Perfect, good data to use against it. I'm not defending the Oriole, just was brainstorming reasons why it might prove useful. I think it needs to go. Its a regimental senate at this point IMHO.

 

[FSTO]

Perfect, good data to use against it. I'm not defending the Oriole, just was brainstorming reasons why it might prove useful. I think it needs to go. Its a regimental senate at this point IMHO.

I too was sad that they kept her. I think home porting her on Lake Ontario is the best use of her. Showing the RCN ensign in the heart of Canada is a small chink in the armour of Central Canada’s Maritime Blindness. IMO, it’ll draw people to find out that Canada has a Navy.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Perfect, good data to use against it. I'm not defending the Oriole, just was brainstorming reasons why it might prove useful. I think it needs to go. Its a regimental senate at this point IMHO.

That was put up as a reason to spend the $2M on CFAV Quest and the east coast fire tug instead, so data didn't matter. It was overruled on baseless 'recruiting' claims.

I'm absolutely biased against the Oriole, but not without some reasons. It doesn't take much money out of the overall budget, but the resources it does take up is the very limited scraps left over, and we get a lot more actual operational capability out of things like fuel barges and other vital but really unsexy things fighting out over the same scraps.

Maybe fun for a small number of people to do their training on it, but realistically we can put a lot more trainees through their OJT on Orcas (which are a great first platform to be introduced to the RCN on) for the same cost, with less LOE to support the training so it's definitely not efficient.

If we want to maintain some museum pieces for recruiting, the Haida and Sackville are great examples, and the AOPs doing Great Lakes tours or visits to the BC coast are also probably legitimate ones, but really have a hard time believing anyone is signing up after walking through a 70 year old, poorly maintained yacht. Also, getting people to the recruiting center isn't actually the problem, so it's money that's could be better spent on the auxiliary fleet to fix something that isn't actually the chokepoint and attrition, so more of a papering of justification for a want vice data supporting a need.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I would be a lot more forgiving to Oriole if she actually had proper historical value or was remotely impressive, but she is an incredibly underwhelming ship that just comes off as kind of sad.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I would be a lot more forgiving to Oriole if she actually had proper historical value or was remotely impressive, but she is an incredibly underwhelming ship that just comes off as kind of sad.

It does however serve as an interesting metaphor for Canadian military.

 

[Underway]

That was put up as a reason to spend the $2M on CFAV Quest and the east coast fire tug instead, so data didn't matter. It was overruled on baseless 'recruiting' claims.

I'm absolutely biased against the Oriole, but not without some reasons. It doesn't take much money out of the overall budget, but the resources it does take up is the very limited scraps left over, and we get a lot more actual operational capability out of things like fuel barges and other vital but really unsexy things fighting out over the same scraps.

Maybe fun for a small number of people to do their training on it, but realistically we can put a lot more trainees through their OJT on Orcas (which are a great first platform to be introduced to the RCN on) for the same cost, with less LOE to support the training so it's definitely not efficient.

If we want to maintain some museum pieces for recruiting, the Haida and Sackville are great examples, and the AOPs doing Great Lakes tours or visits to the BC coast are also probably legitimate ones, but really have a hard time believing anyone is signing up after walking through a 70 year old, poorly maintained yacht. Also, getting people to the recruiting center isn't actually the problem, so it's money that's could be better spent on the auxiliary fleet to fix something that isn't actually the chokepoint and attrition, so more of a papering of justification for a want vice data supporting a need.

If they spent the money on brining back the gun run it would be a better use of funds for recruiting/attractions/outreach operations. That at least can go anywhere in Canada.

*not saying that they should, just pointing out some better alternative "historical and tradition" ideas.

 

[Stoker]

I too was sad that they kept her. I think home porting her on Lake Ontario is the best use of her. Showing the RCN ensign in the heart of Canada is a small chink in the armour of Central Canada’s Maritime Blindness. IMO, it’ll draw people to find out that Canada has a Navy.

That's why we have naval reserve units and Great Lakes deployments.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile down South, it's not just the sailors with a weight problem.

Troubled Constellation Frigate Is Now At Least 759 Metric Tons Overweight

Major changes to the Constellation design from the European FREMM have already caused delays, cost growth, and questions about its future.

www.twz.com