New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Underway]

Essentially this pictoral is a coverage map of the Maritime approaches to Canada. The circle around the ship represents an approximation of the area that ship can cover for domain awareness (combination of sensors, movement and onboard assets like helos).

Essentially this is the idealized number of ships that need to be at sea to provide coverage of Canada's maritime domain and their types.

You'll notice the numbers are 4/15 RCD, 2/4 JSS, 4/12 Subs, 2/6 AOPS and 6/12 corvettes needed at sea or available to to the tasks.

The AOPs cover the inside routes of the NWP while the subs and corvettes cover the approaches.

The JSS and RCD are the main expeditionary and oceanic approaches including subs, and backed up by corvettes.

Also shows the airforce coverage for MPA's of various sorts.

This is the sort of thing that informs ship numbers, and is the baseline for explaining to the government what is needed to provide Canadian continental defence.

So I get that the numbers of 4 JSS and a minimum of 12 CDC are probably coming down the line at some point. RCN is already pushing for 4-5 JSS, 4 was the original ask back in the day when the whole project kicked off.

 

[GR66]

Essentially this pictoral is a coverage map of the Maritime approaches to Canada. The circle around the ship represents an approximation of the area that ship can cover for domain awareness (combination of sensors, movement and onboard assets like helos).

Essentially this is the idealized number of ships that need to be at sea to provide coverage of Canada's maritime domain and their types.

You'll notice the numbers are 4/15 RCD, 2/4 JSS, 4/12 Subs, 2/6 AOPS and 6/12 corvettes needed at sea or available to to the tasks.

The AOPs cover the inside routes of the NWP while the subs and corvettes cover the approaches.

The JSS and RCD are the main expeditionary and oceanic approaches including subs, and backed up by corvettes.

Also shows the airforce coverage for MPA's of various sorts.

This is the sort of thing that informs ship numbers, and is the baseline for explaining to the government what is needed to provide Canadian continental defence.

So I get that the numbers of 4 JSS and a minimum of 12 CDC are probably coming down the line at some point. RCN is already pushing for 4-5 JSS, 4 was the original ask back in the day when the whole project kicked off.

Image link is not working

 

[Underway]

Image link is not working

Try it now.

 

[GR66]

Try it now.

Thank you!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think somebody doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag on the extent of a submarine's domain awareness.

However, with graphs like that, people will wonder why we want or need submarines if the other types of ships can cover so much more.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think somebody doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag on the extent of a submarine's domain awareness.

However, with graphs like that, people will wonder why we want or need submarines if the other types of ships can cover so much more.

Anyone show this map to Trump?

 

[GR66]

Anyone show this map to Trump?

This is the map that Trump uses...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

This is the map that Trump uses...
View attachment 99682

Oh, look! He only needs three more pieces to control South America.

 

[Underway]

I think somebody doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag on the extent of a submarine's domain awareness.

However, with graphs like that, people will wonder why we want or need submarines if the other types of ships can cover so much more.

Someone once told me that an MPA and a submarine working together had more domain awareness that a three frigate with helos task group.

That was pre FELEX and Cyclone but I think the comparison is valuable. It's not like the MPAs and Subs haven't had sensor upgrades since then either.

 

[Rainbow1910]

So, What The Hell Is An Arctic Mobile Base?

Opinion

t.co

Noah shared a very interesting post recently, I wasn’t entirely sure where it best fit so I am posting it here. Apparently the RCN is looking at procuring a pair of “Arctic Mobile Base” ships, which sound to be a true “Joint Support Ship” concept similarly in some degrees to what we have looked at in the past but built to operate in the high Arctic.

I guess one could say they are the true successors to the original Joint Support Ship concept; maybe even ALSC if you want to get deep into the philosophical.

They are an everything vessel. They will be Command and Control centers. They will have large, extensive medical facilities. They will be Replenishment Vessels, able to support the rest of the fleet at sea. They might have some submarine tender capabilities and forward repair capabilities built in. Those two are me speculating, though I'm sure someone is asking those questions.

They will be HADR platforms, able to operate independently of any existing infrastructure like ports. They will have an amphibious capability to support that, and if needed, support the Army in any endeavor they find themselves in. They will be able to reach any other vessel in the fleet, even the Polars if required.

That means that as of now, the Navy is looking at PC 2 for its potential rating, a monumental ask. It is likely to have similar range and endurance requirements to the existing Polar Icebreakers, so perhaps around a 25,000-30,000 Nautical Mile Range (as a general rough figure) and upwards of 270 days endurance.

That will allow for the AMB to maintain a persistent, on-station capability in the Archipelago for an extended period of time, similar to the future Arpatuuq and Imnaryuaq. Again, the AMBs are meant to be a semi-permanent capability in the Arctic, with the desire to have one up there or available to get up there at any given time and stay up there supporting both the fleet and local communities for an extended period of time.

We can infer some things, such as the likelihood that this platform will have some form of well deck to support landing craft. It will likely be ~200m in length and upwards of 30,000+ tonnes. Slightly bigger in size than the Protecteur-class, but the addition of her PC 2 rating will make her fairly heavier, which is why I'm guesstimating in the 30,000+ range.

All of this is in line with what I have heard over the last few months since the concept was first rumored around last year. Since last year, much of the above has remained fairly consistent, save the PC 2 rating desire, which hasn't really been prevalent in discussions.

So to recap, we have a 30,000-tonne PC 2 Joint Support Ship capable of supporting things like Replenishment at Sea to other vessels, Humanitarian and Disaster Relief, potentially things like forward repair, and support for amphibious operations.

They will likely have a range of 25,000nm and an endurance of up to 270 days. They will likely have a large medical facility, NATO Role IIE or III, as well as a well deck to support the operation of landing craft for areas without dedicated port facilities, while providing some future-proofed potential to the Canadian Army in the event they need access to such a capability.

It sounds like the RCN is utilizing this period of substantially increased interest, resources and effort being put towards the CAF to push forwards a pair of all singing, all dancing large Arctic support vessels. Polar Class 2 rated Joint Support Ship is a very tall order from a design perspective, it seems the RCN is betting on Arctic infrastructure being insufficient for the foreseeable future to the point they plan on effectively bringing their own to the theatre.

Interesting concept, not sure how much I support this sort of thing. I think there’s a substantial chance this program could turn into a boondoggle.

 

[Czech_pivo]

So, What The Hell Is An Arctic Mobile Base?

Opinion

t.co

Noah shared a very interesting post recently, I wasn’t entirely sure where it best fit so I am posting it here. Apparently the RCN is looking at procuring a pair of “Arctic Mobile Base” ships, which sound to be a true “Joint Support Ship” concept similarly in some degrees to what we have looked at in the past but built to operate in the high Arctic.




It sounds like the RCN is utilizing this period of substantially increased interest, resources and effort being put towards the CAF to push forwards a pair of all singing, all dancing large Arctic support vessels. Polar Class 2 rated Joint Support Ship is a very tall order from a design perspective, it seems the RCN is betting on Arctic infrastructure being insufficient for the foreseeable future to the point they plan on effectively bringing their own to the theatre.

Interesting concept, not sure how much I support this sort of thing. I think there’s a substantial chance this program could turn into a boondoggle.

I have to ask this question. If the RCN got a pair of PC2 JSS's just what other RCN ships would be able to be in the Arctic operating in conditions where a PC2 JSS would be operating in? You don't need a PC2 JSS for the months of Aug-Oct. What RCN ships (current, future or hypothetical) would be able capable to operate in the Arctic say May-July or Nov-Dec where a PC2 JSS could?

 

[Rainbow1910]

I have to ask this question. If the RCN got a pair of PC2 JSS's just what other RCN ships would be able to be in the Arctic operating in conditions where a PC2 JSS would be operating in? You don't need a PC2 JSS for the months of Aug-Oct. What RCN ships (current, future or hypothetical) would be able capable to operate in the Arctic say May-July or Nov-Dec where a PC2 JSS could?

None, the only Navy asset able to safely operate into ice is the AOPS and even that vessel isn’t capable of operating in the seasons you mention.

It seems like they want a platform capable of going effectively anywhere in the Arctic whenever it is ultimately required. The only other vessel able to match the Polar Class pit forward by Noah on the AMB would be the CCG’s heavy polar icebreakers. It very much sounds like instead of investing in purpose built or substantial dual use infrastructure, the RCN is just planning to bring its own mobile base.

 

[Czech_pivo]

None, the only Navy asset able to safely operate into ice is the AOPS and even that vessel isn’t capable of operating in the seasons you mention.

It seems like they want a platform capable of going effectively anywhere in the Arctic whenever it is ultimately required. The only other vessel able to match the Polar Class pit forward by Noah on the AMB would be the CCG’s heavy polar icebreakers. It very much sounds like instead of investing in purpose built or substantial dual use infrastructure, the RCN is just planning to bring its own mobile base.

Would not something as a big and as strategic as this is, not need a 'big brother or two' with it to keep it safe? AC would be essential, but time/distance/weather may not always work in our favour. Would it make sense for this hypothetical ship to have multiple helo's and UAV available to it?

 

[Furniture]

I have to ask this question. If the RCN got a pair of PC2 JSS's just what other RCN ships would be able to be in the Arctic operating in conditions where a PC2 JSS would be operating in? You don't need a PC2 JSS for the months of Aug-Oct. What RCN ships (current, future or hypothetical) would be able capable to operate in the Arctic say May-July or Nov-Dec where a PC2 JSS could?

The idea presented in the Substack article is that the RCN wants the ability to project support into the arctic to provide support to CAF or other GoC missions regardless of the season. It's not just about supporting RCN ships in the arctic.


Looking at the problems that exist regarding infrastructure in the arctic, it makes sense to have the ability to go up there and not need anything from the locals, while also supporting other GoC assets.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Would not something as a big and as strategic as this is, not need a 'big brother or two' with it to keep it safe? AC would be essential, but time/distance/weather may not always work in our favour. Would it make sense for this hypothetical ship to have multiple helo's and UAV available to it?

I would imagine a design such as this will have a robust self defence capability alongside a decent sensor suite, primarily due to as you mention the fact it will find itself alone most of the time. If you look at vaguely similar vessels to what is being proposed for AMB, you can see what I am talking about.

The Dutch Karel Doorman is being retrofitted with a 76mm gun and RAM launcher, alongside its existing 30mm cannons, smaller calibre machine guns and its decoys. It's also fitted with Thales SeaMaster 400 SMILE Air Warning radar, which provides it a pretty decent capability to surveil and protect itself. ASW is kind of a crap shoot in the North, but you could field Cyclones aboard if you really wanted. If there is substantial threat to this vessel, we either wouldn't risk deploying it or we'd send air, surface and undersea escorts as far as we possibly could. Fighting in the North is a messy affair that is somewhat unlikely.