New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Greene]

I thought they had started a block a couple of months ago?

Full-rate construction started about a year ago. Keel was laid on Friday. The Global article is not very accurate or well written.

 

[Halifax Tar]

well its not really our Davie

on time
on budget
built domestically
quality delivered

pick 3?

On time
On budget
Quality delivered

 

[Stoker]

A new HMCS Cormorant could be manned in a similar fashion as Asterix or the RFA model, reducing the strain on navy personal. Have it tasked with undersea infrastructure inspection/protection and sub rescue.

You mean at a 100M a year cost like Asterix?

 

[dapaterson]

You mean at a 100M a year cost like Asterix?

The capital cost amortization plus the CAF EBP over 100% makes some of those options more affordable than you might think.

 

[Maxman1]

A new HMCS Cormorant could be manned in a similar fashion as Asterix or the RFA model, reducing the strain on navy personal. Have it tasked with undersea infrastructure inspection/protection and sub rescue.

Since it's a non-combatant support vessel, would it be possible to integrate coast guard into the crew? Rescuing vessels is what the coast guard does.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

A submarine rescue vessel is fundamentally a deep diving support vessel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Having it under the CCG mandate, might work, deep diving support, can also be used for science and infrastructure inspection and protection.

 

[Kirkhill]

You mean at a 100M a year cost like Asterix?

What do you reckon the annualized cost of a Halifax is?

It would be a useful exercise if every ship were costed on the same basis as the Asterix.

And for that matter, every Squadron and every Regiment and Battalion.

 

[Stoker]

What do you reckon the annualized cost of a Halifax is?

It would be a useful exercise if every ship were costed on the same basis as the Asterix.

And for that matter, every Squadron and every Regiment and Battalion.

Yes but we own Halifax don't we. We don't own Asterix.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes but we own Halifax don't we. We don't own Asterix.

But it costs us to own, operate and replace the Halifaxes and that number gets buried in the Decence Estimates.

Try and find out how much it costs us every year to have a navy.

If we knew the actual cost of maintaining a ship annually, including capital amortization and manning, or the cost of maintaining a CF18 squadron or a M777 regiment, then the cost of replacing old worn out kit with new kit would not be such a political hot potato.

On the other hand it might show that buying services might be cheaper than operating the service ourselves.

 

[suffolkowner]

Yes but we own Halifax don't we. We don't own Asterix.

We chose not to buy Asterix didnt we?

 

[Stoker]

We chose not to buy Asterix didnt we?

I guess we still might...

 

[FJAG]

What do you reckon the annualized cost of a Halifax is?

It would be a useful exercise if every ship were costed on the same basis as the Asterix.

And for that matter, every Squadron and every Regiment and Battalion.

It can be done. Periodically the US Congressional Budget Office puts our figures on the US armed forces. Here's an extract from the latest (2021) version.

Surface Combatant	Total	Direct	Indirect	Overhead
Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer (DDG-51)
Military Personnel per Unit	710	350	90	270
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	180	80	30	70
Ticonderoga Class Cruiser (CG-47)
Military Personnel per Unit	800	390	110	300
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	210	100	40	80
Littoral Combat Ship
Military Personnel per Unit	510	240	80	190
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	150	70	30	50
Zumwalt Class Destroyer (DDG-1000)
Military Personnel per Unit	510	240	80	190
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	230	130	50	50

 

[Kirkhill]

It can be done. Periodically the US Congressional Budget Office puts our figures on the US armed forces. Here's an extract from the latest (2021) version.

Surface Combatant	Total	Direct	Indirect	Overhead
Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer (DDG-51)
Military Personnel per Unit	710	350	90	270
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	180	80	30	70
Ticonderoga Class Cruiser (CG-47)
Military Personnel per Unit	800	390	110	300
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	210	100	40	80
Littoral Combat Ship
Military Personnel per Unit	510	240	80	190
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	150	70	30	50
Zumwalt Class Destroyer (DDG-1000)
Military Personnel per Unit	510	240	80	190
Annual Cost per Unit (Millions of 2021 dollars)	230	130	50	50

Just like that.

And I am surprised that over all the years of governments scrutinizing defence and hunting for dollars that this hasn't been implemented decades ago.

It would have been second nature when people bought their commissions and colonels owned their regiments.

 

[Halifax Tar]

We chose not to buy Asterix didnt we?

Yes, and chose not get Oblix either.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes, and chose not get Oblix either.

What is the anticipated annual cost of operating the Protecteur? And, for that matter, what is the annual cost of maintaining a task force for it to support?

 

[Underway]

But it costs us to own, operate and replace the Halifaxes and that number gets buried in the Decence Estimates.

Try and find out how much it costs us every year to have a navy.

If we knew the actual cost of maintaining a ship annually, including capital amortization and manning, or the cost of maintaining a CF18 squadron or a M777 regiment, then the cost of replacing old worn out kit with new kit would not be such a political hot potato.

On the other hand it might show that buying services might be cheaper than operating the service ourselves.

Cost Cofactors Manual (or whatever its called now) has the daily cost of the Halifax Class. The math is out there somewhere.

As for PRO's costs, we don't know yet, need to get her on the water and figure it out.

 

[Czech_pivo]

What is the anticipated annual cost of operating the Protecteur? And, for that matter, what is the annual cost of maintaining a task force for it to support?

How about looking at it from this perspective.

How much would the RCN save per year in wages/benefits/pensions/training, in not crewing the 2 JSS ships (roughly 400 crew members in total) vs the cost to lease those 2 ships from Davie?

If we assume that the 'all in' average cost of a crew member (meaning, wages/benefits/pension/training contributions) is say 90$k/yr and you take that 90k/yr and multiple it across 400 crew members for the 2 ships, we come to a cost of 90$K X 400 = 36$ million/yr in total compensation. Over a 5yr lease time period that's 36m X 5yrs = 180m in savings.

So, if we turn those ships over to Davie, along with Asterix, and have Davie run them for us, what would that cost be? We would own the assets (the 2 JSS) but Davie would be responsible for running them on a day to day operational level.

 

[Halifax Tar]

How about looking at it from this perspective.

How much would the RCN save per year in wages/benefits/pensions/training, in not crewing the 2 JSS ships (roughly 400 crew members in total) vs the cost to lease those 2 ships from Davie?

If we assume that the 'all in' average cost of a crew member (meaning, wages/benefits/pension/training contributions) is say 90$k/yr and you take that 90k/yr and multiple it across 400 crew members for the 2 ships, we come to a cost of 90$K X 400 = 36$ million/yr in total compensation. Over a 5yr lease time period that's 36m X 5yrs = 180m in savings.

So, if we turn those ships over to Davie, along with Asterix, and have Davie run them for us, what would that cost be? We would own the assets (the 2 JSS) but Davie would be responsible for running them on a day to day operational level.

Both the RN and USN crew their Logistics/AOR/Support ships with mostly civilian crews. There is a case to be made...

Military Sealift Command - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Combat Logistics Force was the part of the MSC most associated with directly supporting the Navy. In 1972, a study concluded that it would be cheaper for civilians to man USN support vessels such as tankers and stores ships. The CLF is the American equivalent of the British Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

Royal Fleet Auxiliary - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rainbow1910]

Both the RN and USN crew their Logistics/AOR/Support ships with mostly civilian crews. There is a case to be made...

Military Sealift Command - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Combat Logistics Force was the part of the MSC most associated with directly supporting the Navy. In 1972, a study concluded that it would be cheaper for civilians to man USN support vessels such as tankers and stores ships. The CLF is the American equivalent of the British Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

Royal Fleet Auxiliary - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can also look to the RFA to see the pitfalls of letting your key logistical capabilities fall to a unionized civilian workforce.....