New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[GK.Dundas/ Guest]

And just how would Irving meet the needs of the CDC when they have zero excess capacity for the next 18+yrs?

What's that got do with anything . This the Irving Corporation.
Which the closest real life example that I've ever seen of the infamous "WESAYSOCORP. from Sid &Marty Kroft's Dinosaurs tv series.

 

[Stoker]

so no CDC in my lifetime or that of my grandson. Unless Irving re-opened St. John's which would take at least 5 years (yes I am optimistic) and then hired and trained an entire new workforce they simply can't do it. And as said before we need them last year, not in a decade or more

Just asking a question, unsure if that's actually true.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

They've already expanded the strategy to three shipyards. Who says they couldn't add a fourth one for CDC?

If you build 18 to 20 CDC over a period of 25 years, you are ready for the next iteration by the time you are through with the program, so with that expansion of the fleet, there is room for another yard in the continuous build mode.

Besides, right now, my view is that the first priority for the RCN is to get the replacement and increased number of ORCA type vessels Topshee mentioned because if you are going to need to crew more ships, the rate at which we now produce watch-keepers is way too slow.

 

[Stoker]

And just how would Irving meet the needs of the CDC when they have zero excess capacity for the next 18+yrs?

Top of my head build excess capacity or partner with another shipyard that has capacity.

 

[GK.Dundas/ Guest]

What's that got do with anything . This the Irving Corporation.
Which the closest real life example that I've ever seen of the infamous "WESAYSOCORP. from Sid &Marty Kroft's Dinosaurs tv series.

Ahh you've seen the series...heh!

 

[Stoker]

They've already expanded the strategy to three shipyards. Who says they couldn't add a fourth one for CDC?

If you build 18 to 20 CDC over a period of 25 years, you are ready for the next iteration by the time you are through with the program, so with that expansion of the fleet, there is room for another yard in the continuous build mode.

Besides, right now, my view is that the first priority for the RCN is to get the replacement and increased number of ORCA type vessels Topshee mentioned because if you are going to need to crew more ships, the rate at which we now produce watch-keepers is way too slow.

Honestly Topshee is VCDS now not the head of the Navy, time will tell what the RCN priorities will actually be.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Honestly Topshee is VCDS now not the head of the Navy, time will tell what the RCN priorities will actually be.

Granted. But the current CRCN has the same problem: There is an expanded fleet on the horizon that will need more personnel, more trained personnel. So the time to build training capacity is now, or as soon as possible from now, because in terms of expanding training capacity, 10 to 15 years is almost the blink of an eye.

 

[Czech_pivo]

They've already expanded the strategy to three shipyards. Who says they couldn't add a fourth one for CDC?

If you build 18 to 20 CDC over a period of 25 years, you are ready for the next iteration by the time you are through with the program, so with that expansion of the fleet, there is room for another yard in the continuous build mode.

Besides, right now, my view is that the first priority for the RCN is to get the replacement and increased number of ORCA type vessels Topshee mentioned because if you are going to need to crew more ships, the rate at which we now produce watch-keepers is way too slow.

I’ve tried laying out on here last week that Irving/Dqvie/Seaspan have zero capacity for the next 12-20yrs, with Davie being the only 1 that could accommodate IF they could find another 1800+ skilled workers.
The need for a 4th shipyard is a must if we build 16-20 CDC’s.

 

[Stoker]

Granted. But the current CRCN has the same problem: There is an expanded fleet on the horizon that will need more personnel, more trained personnel. So the time to build training capacity is now, or as soon as possible from now, because in terms of expanding training capacity, 10 to 15 years is almost the blink of an eye.

Personnel 100%. At this point we know we're getting 2 JSS, at least 3 RCD and a unknown number of submarines. Just got new tugs and the RFI is out for 2 new dive tenders. I can see walking back on the numbers of ORCA class replacements, submarines and the CDC is not even a RFI yet.

 

[Stoker]

I’ve tried laying out on here last week that Irving/Dqvie/Seaspan have zero capacity for the next 12-20yrs, with Davie being the only 1 that could accommodate IF they could find another 1800+ skilled workers.
The need for a 4th shipyard is a must if we build 16-20 CDC’s.

Pretty sure we're not getting 16 to 20 CDC's....Before Davie gets to work on building the CDC they need to sort out lots of things at their yard including modernizing it. Was there for HDW's "extended" refit, it wasn't that impressive.

 

[suffolkowner]

Pretty sure we're not getting 16 to 20 CDC's....Before Davie gets to work on building the CDC they need to sort out lots of things at their yard including modernizing it. Was there for HDW's "extended" refit, it wasn't that impressive.

Davie seems real slow off the mark, it makes one wonder how much harder it might be to get another yard up and going

 

[YZT580]

Davie seems real slow off the mark, it makes one wonder how much harder it might be to get another yard up and going

probably not as hard as Davie seems to be. Ontario Shipyards has already initiated a training programme in conjunction with a regional college and they have both Lakehead and St. Catharines for final assembly so space is not an issue. They have a third yard in Hamilton but it doesn't have the assembly space although I am guessing could construct modules. With 3 yards to build sections and ample space for an assembly shed they could get up and moving and use the time between contract and completion of first modules to build the necessary infrastructure. They are the only ones I know of that have the necessary resources at hand to actually undertake such a project with a reasonable chance of success.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not to mention the lack of capacity to build for the domestic market, such as ferries

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Colin: Davie is currently designing to build two ferries for the Federal government under the Shipbuilding Strategy.

 

[YZT580]

Colin: Davie is currently designing to build two ferries for the Federal government under the Shipbuilding Strategy.

to be delivered in 2028/29 respectively. Long overdue.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

to be delivered in 2028/29 respectively. Long overdue.

What is long overdue? Replacing the two ferries they will replace? (That I agree fully) Or delivering them in 2028/29? The government is finalizing the contract now. 2026 to 28/29 for delivery is actually a tight schedule.

 

[JMCanada]

Back to my point, I was talking about idle Engineering capabilities at Seaspan while they build the 16 (not sure if that's the number) medium ice-breakers.
Those CDCs might be built somewhere else.

NSS should not be taken as written in stone forever, there should be margin for evolution as needs arise. Some other shipyard might be allowed to build ships that were not even envisaged at the time of sharing the combat and non- combat packages.

 

[YZT580]

What is long overdue? Replacing the two ferries they will replace? (That I agree fully) Or delivering them in 2028/29? The government is finalizing the contract now. 2026 to 28/29 for delivery is actually a tight schedule.

To clarify, construction time is almost unbelievable. Kudos to them if they can go from contract to delivery in 2 years. It took them longer than that to modify the Asterix if I remember correctly. No my comment was with regard to actually ordering them in the first place.

 

[Rainbow1910]

What is long overdue? Replacing the two ferries they will replace? (That I agree fully) Or delivering them in 2028/29? The government is finalizing the contract now. 2026 to 28/29 for delivery is actually a tight schedule.

I posted back in February talking about the ferry debacle, the schedule is pretty laughable given how the Levis shipyard seems to be a derelict ghost town in comparison to their NSS counterparts.

Davie talked a huge game trying to muscle their way into the NSS, only to go entirely silent and apparently be unable to even deliver a pair of ferries to Transport Canada after gobbling up a bunch of money from the Quebec Government. At this point, Davie seems less interested in bringing its Canadian operation up to speed and getting on with its NSS contracts, and more interested in buying foreign shipyards to boost their overall profit abroad. They've already began farming out work that should be done in Canada to their new Finnish Helsinki yard for their Polar Icebreaker, to the point that we don't actually know how much work on this ship will actually be done in Canada.

Davie has 1 Polar Icebreaker and 6 Program Icebreakers, the latter is being farmed out abroad seemingly and the former haven't been started. Before we start talking about handing them CDC work, maybe they should get to work finishing their yard work and working on what they've already been given?

Commande de deux traversiers | La construction se fait attendre chez Davie

Pendant qu’il grandit en Finlande et aux États-Unis, Davie est enlisé dans un important contrat ici. Six ans après avoir obtenu une commande de Transports Canada pour deux traversiers parce qu’il était considéré comme le seul à pouvoir remettre la marchandise à temps, le chantier maritime de...

www.lapresse.ca

At the time, Ottawa cited the urgency of obtaining two ferries quickly to justify its decision to award the contract directly to Davie, without going through a traditional competitive tender.

This case, which concerns a contract worth several hundred million, dates back to 2019. The ferries Madeleine, which connects the islands of the same name to Prince Edward Island, and Holiday Island, which connects Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, are nearing the end of their useful life.

They "must be replaced as quickly as possible", announced the federal notice.

"Davie is the only Canadian shipyard that has the capacity to design two ro-ro passenger ferries of more than 80 metres within the requested timeframe," the document said, justifying its decision to do business with the Quebec shipyard.

At the time, the agreement came at the right time for the Quebec shipyard. The latter was still a few years away from being included in the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which guarantees the construction of icebreakers for the Coast Guard.

Since then, Davie has been thinking big. He was promised $630 million by the Legault government to modernize his Lévis shipyard in addition to buying a shipyard in Finland at a cost of $100 million. He also wants to invest up to $1 billion in Texas to build icebreakers there.

According to the federal documents we consulted, the delivery schedules had already been established: 2026 for the successor to the Madeleine (MV Jean-Lapierre) and 2027 for the successor to the Holiday Island. These targets seem utopian and no one dares to put forward new dates.

Notes prepared for Transport Canada's federal deputy minister, Arun Thangaraj, as part of an appearance before a parliamentary committee last June, did not provide any details.

"The delivery date is under discussion with Davie," they say.

In an email exchange with La Presse, Transport Canada finally indicated on Friday that the delivery years that appeared in the contract award notice were "provisional and subject to change." The precise reasons behind the changes, however, have not been specified despite our requests.

This turn of events forced Transport Canada to procure two replacement ferries built abroad (Spain and Norway). Together, the two ships cost nearly $200 million.

The companies that were promised the ferries seem to have turned the page. The Coopérative de transport maritime et aérien (CTMA) was to operate the Jean-Lapierre ferry. Its general manager, Emmanuel Aucoin, no longer seems to want it.

"Our Madeleine II [the used ship] is doing a remarkable job, we can see it, it is efficient," Mr. Aucoin told the regional station CFIM last January. We don't think we're putting in any energy and we don't want the government to put it in to replace him with the Jean-Lapierre."

This isn't the first time a ferry contract has become complicated for Davie. An order for two ships with the Société des traversiers du Québec a decade ago resulted in delays and cost overruns.

To help it rejuvenate its Lévis facilities, the Legault government offered Davie $325 million in loans. La Presse revealed on October 21 that the entire amount is "forgivable," with no obligation to repay.