New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Colin Parkinson]

Colin: Davie is currently designing to build two ferries for the Federal government under the Shipbuilding Strategy.

Remind me again why a province gets to have the feds build them ferries?

 

[suffolkowner]

Remind me again why a province gets to have the feds build them ferries?

constitution for PEI ?

 

[dapaterson]

Remind me again why a province gets to have the feds build them ferries?

BC ferries are internal to BC.

Ferries to NL are between provinces.

 

[MacNav63]

BC ferries are internal to BC.

Ferries to NL are between provinces.

Exactly. Inter-provincial transportation is a federal responsibility in the constitution, which is why Marine Atlantic is a federal crown corporation. That has led over the years to a couple of interesting angles being played by the provinces. When the feds decided to build the bridge to PEI to replace the ferry from New Brunswick (which involved amending the constitution) PEI insisted on a federal commitment to maintain funding for the ferry to Nova Scotia. And there is no ferry from mainland Quebec to the Magdalene Islands, which the province would have to pay for, only from PEI, which the feds pay for.

 

[dapaterson]

Clearly the solution is for Saltspring Island to separate and become its own province, and route all BC Ferries routes through there, nationalizing them under Federal funding.

Branch plan: Make Saltspring part of Saskatchewan, giving them ocean access and making Islanders part of the rich cultural heritage of Corner Gas.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Clearly the solution is for Saltspring Island to separate and become its own province, and route all BC Ferries routes through there, nationalizing them under Federal funding.

Branch plan: Make Saltspring part of Saskatchewan, giving them ocean access and making Islanders part of the rich cultural heritage of Corner Gas.

Keep this up and you are going to be appointed Grandmaster of the Rhino party

 

[lenaitch]

Clearly the solution is for Saltspring Island to separate and become its own province, and route all BC Ferries routes through there, nationalizing them under Federal funding.

Branch plan: Make Saltspring part of Saskatchewan, giving them ocean access and making Islanders part of the rich cultural heritage of Corner Gas.

Or, alternatively, give the island to Alberta. It would give them the tidewater they covet and save them from annexing NWT (which someone said they had a right to do).

 

[dapaterson]

Or, alternatively, give the island to Alberta. It would give them the tidewater they covet and save them from annexing NWT (which someone said they had a right to do).

The one thing BC and SK share is a profound dislike and distrust of AB.

 

[Underway]

They've already expanded the strategy to three shipyards. Who says they couldn't add a fourth one for CDC?

If you build 18 to 20 CDC over a period of 25 years, you are ready for the next iteration by the time you are through with the program, so with that expansion of the fleet, there is room for another yard in the continuous build mode.

Besides, right now, my view is that the first priority for the RCN is to get the replacement and increased number of ORCA type vessels Topshee mentioned because if you are going to need to crew more ships, the rate at which we now produce watch-keepers is way too slow.

They are producing NWO's at a record rate right now. However they changed all the training to do so. You're OFP when you finish your MARS 4 or whatever its called. Matching all the other trades in the CAF. And they've significantly streamlined the post BWK process. No more NOPQ boards. They you go do OOD and BWK. You get streamed into three options. Information Warfare/Management, Staff stream (dry stream for operations) or Seagoing Operations (those are not the names but the functions).

Seagoing engineering is going a similar direction with no more at sea phase 6. You get your OOD after a very attenuated Applications course, and go straight to shore support management of the fleet. When you are ready for what used to be your A/HOD you do a two year stint (instead of 1 year) as an engineering Divisional Officer (one of two per flavour of engineering). That's your A/HOD and PHVI sea time to get you ready for HOD. Which is now a LCdr position post Div O tour.

*you'll note I'm not listing any pros/cons, its too new and I haven't had a good sit down with the training staff or been on ship to see the products. Some good some bad, but its not like we have options at this point. We're short ships and people.

 

[dapaterson]

If dry stream is "never go to sea" then the CAF needs to reign in the RCN - the technical term for a MARS / NWO who never goes to sea is a civilian, and those positions need to be appropriately changed.

 

[Lumber]

If dry stream is "never go to sea" then the CAF needs to reign in the RCN - the technical term for a MARS / NWO who never goes to sea is a civilian, and those positions need to be appropriately changed.

So, the "Air Operations Officer" trade should just be civilians as well, you would say?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Nothing really to add, but great point:

If dry stream is "never go to sea" then the CAF needs to reign in the RCN - the technical term for a MARS / NWO who never goes to sea is a civilian, and those positions need to be appropriately changed.

Great counter point:

So, the "Air Operations Officer" trade should just be civilians as well, you would say?

Just to clarify, Eng Dept HODs will now be LCdrs ?

Seagoing engineering is going a similar direction with no more at sea phase 6. You get your OOD after a very attenuated Applications course, and go straight to shore support management of the fleet. When you are ready for what used to be your A/HOD you do a two year stint (instead of 1 year) as an engineering Divisional Officer (one of two per flavour of engineering). That's your A/HOD and PHVI sea time to get you ready for HOD. Which is now a LCdr position post Div O tour.

 

[dapaterson]

So, the "Air Operations Officer" trade should just be civilians as well, you would say?

The CAF writ large suffers from a uniform fetish. Many officer trades have grown to the point where little to no operational experience occurs. Given the significant costs associated with CAF personnel, and GoC caps on the number of CAF personnel, strong limits on CAF establishments to focus attention where military personnel are required, not necessarily desired, are necessary.

There is a need for ship to shore ratio. But if the same folks are always ashore then it's not working as intended.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The CAF writ large suffers from a uniform fetish. Many officer trades have grown to the point where little to no operational experience occurs. Given the significant costs associated with CAF personnel, and GoC caps on the number of CAF personnel, strong limits on CAF establishments to focus attention where military personnel are required, not necessarily desired, are necessary.

This is being noticed in the Naval Log world. The delta in operational experience between our commissioned and non folks is getting wider by the minute.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They are producing NWO's at a record rate right now. However they changed all the training to do so. You're OFP when you finish your MARS 4 or whatever its called. Matching all the other trades in the CAF. And they've significantly streamlined the post BWK process. No more NOPQ boards. They you go do OOD and BWK. You get streamed into three options. Information Warfare/Management, Staff stream (dry stream for operations) or Seagoing Operations (those are not the names but the functions).

Seagoing engineering is going a similar direction with no more at sea phase 6. You get your OOD after a very attenuated Applications course, and go straight to shore support management of the fleet. When you are ready for what used to be your A/HOD you do a two year stint (instead of 1 year) as an engineering Divisional Officer (one of two per flavour of engineering). That's your A/HOD and PHVI sea time to get you ready for HOD. Which is now a LCdr position post Div O tour.

*you'll note I'm not listing any pros/cons, its too new and I haven't had a good sit down with the training staff or been on ship to see the products. Some good some bad, but its not like we have options at this point. We're short ships and people.

I heard rumours that they are not accepting anymore recruits in the NWO stream for now?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

They are producing NWO's at a record rate right now. However they changed all the training to do so. You're OFP when you finish your MARS 4 or whatever its called. Matching all the other trades in the CAF. And they've significantly streamlined the post BWK process. No more NOPQ boards. They you go do OOD and BWK. You get streamed into three options. Information Warfare/Management, Staff stream (dry stream for operations) or Seagoing Operations (those are not the names but the functions).

Seagoing engineering is going a similar direction with no more at sea phase 6. You get your OOD after a very attenuated Applications course, and go straight to shore support management of the fleet. When you are ready for what used to be your A/HOD you do a two year stint (instead of 1 year) as an engineering Divisional Officer (one of two per flavour of engineering). That's your A/HOD and PHVI sea time to get you ready for HOD. Which is now a LCdr position post Div O tour.

*you'll note I'm not listing any pros/cons, its too new and I haven't had a good sit down with the training staff or been on ship to see the products. Some good some bad, but its not like we have options at this point. We're short ships and people.

If dry stream is "never go to sea" then the CAF needs to reign in the RCN - the technical term for a MARS / NWO who never goes to sea is a civilian, and those positions need to be appropriately changed.

Well, DP, I must jokingly state here that if this how you see it, then about 75% of the officer's positions at NDHQ should be changed to civilian.

But more seriously now. That's not how I read what Underway is saying.

First, I gather that ALL NWO will first get qualified as OOD/OOW, then move into one of the three streams mentioned, so the split into a stream takes place at the point where we use to do what was known as the "D" level. As such, all NWO will be sea qualified.

Obviously, the seagoing ops steam will be the one leading to command of warship and of groups of warships at sea - no change there.

There is no indication of whether the information warfare/management steam is wet or dry. As they would have something useful to contribute in either domain, I suspect they will serve both at sea and on shore in those capacities. I am fine with this. Cyber warfare and information system support for operation is a rapidly developing and important new area of warfare that deserves specialization.

Now we get to your beef: Staff stream. I think you are misconstruing the "staff" work at issue, by applying the army view of staff as being personnel not in chain of command but providing the "administrative" support to line commanders that is required to achieve implementation of their decisions. Underway does qualify the "staff" work he is talking about: "dry steam for operations".

Naval warfare ten years from now will be totally different than what it is now. If you want a good primer, read through all the post from Kirkhill in the "Who needs sailors anyway" stream. All sorts of autonomous, semi-autonomous, remotely operated and sea based sensor systems will operate to support the fleet and the information needs of the Navy. Their operations and deployments will have to be planned in an organized way, their information collated, analyzed and distributed so as to support the efforts of the fleet at sea. What picture they generate and combat capability they bring to the fleet will be just as important to a ship at sea and its command team as the one developed locally onboard. This work will be done by those NWO in the "dry" stream for operations. And this is about to expand exponentially.

The other staff work of an administrative nature in headquarters will continue to exist and will take people from all three streams as required, still providing shore posting to maintain a ship/shore ratio.

On another note, with the complexity of the vessels about to enter service, I have no problem with the EO being a Lcdr. Heck! I would have no problem with the Chief Engineer going back to being a CPO1.

 

[FSTO]

If I read my PPT slides right, an NWO can bounce into the Staff stream at any time in their career.

 

[childs56]

The one thing BC and SK share is a profound dislike and distrust of AB.

Depends on what part of BC and SK you go to.
Many I know from the island and Northern BC like Alberta to the point they work there regularly. Without that work they wouldn't be able to sustain their lifestyle they have grown accustomed to.

Most of the people I have had conversations with from Sk are also found of Alberta.
Maybe those in the lower mainland might not be too happy. But they often can't see past their agendas. Like banning all natural gas use by 2030 um 2032 let's forget we did that.
How about vancouvers ban the Internal combustion engines. Oh wait that one went to the way side also when. Reality set in.

 

[Underway]

This is being noticed in the Naval Log world. The delta in operational experience between our commissioned and non folks is getting wider by the minute.

Still need to get that, Baby Log and Log O tour. Its been like that for decades. What's changed?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Still need to get that, Baby Log and Log O tour. Its been like that for decades. What's changed?

Its actually not required. And too many are turning down the opportunity. It was a major topic of discussion on our most recent Log symposium, from their occupation management side.