New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[Haggis]

All the militia units I am familiar with have agreements with local gyms/health clubs for free or heavily discounted membership - it is not out of pocket.

Then those are lucky units.  Unfortunately that's not true everywhere. But in the post I replied to, you were referring to "applicants":

If you were to apply to any uniformed service (LE, Border Serv, CF, DCorr etc) and fail due to the physical requirements, would that department pay or compensate you while you tried to get yourself in shape, so that you could re-apply?

I feel that under NO circumstances should applicants be given access to CF owned or funded facilities until they are hired.  That is definitely a perk.

I agree strongly with the application of the PT standards to the pathetic in the reg force as well - but they are not claiming that they are not paid to work out (most of them go sobbing to the MIR to avoid testing or PT)

Reservists aren't asking to be paid while doing PT on their own. Nor should they.  What they are asking for is loss of earnings and pension coverage if they get injured doing PT on their own and are unable to do either Army or Civvy work.  (However, paying them would be quite a draw... and a heckuva big chunk out of our new $13B budget)  I would say that a part time Reservist who is paid to do PT who fails the PT test, would owe the Army a few bucks.  But, hey, where I work full time CF members are given 1 hour/day for PT and some still fail the PT test.

I've seen guys charged for haircuts - and charges are usually considered when speaking of a members career.

And I've charged guys for haircuts.  It's a minor offence. The career implications are not the same.  Find me the "haircut" checkbox on the PER form.  Apples and oranges again.

I believe that we are selling our reservists short by making excuses to keep them from Reg force standards.

Agreed.  One Army - One Standard, in all respects.

Regardless of your choice, there are standards to be met, and they should be applied equally. Should you choose not to meet them, see ya!

Agreed again.

GO!!!, it's been a  blast, but it's Christmas Eve.  I'm going to forget about PT and PT standards for the next 36 hours.

Have a safe and Merry Christmas.

 

[Infanteer]

It's obvious that this issue, like so many others for Reservists, needs to be addressed with a contract.  The notion of the pay sheet should have been abandoned with the myth of the "Citizen Soldier" saving the day; Reservists need to be "fully professional on a part-time basis".

 

[Hansol]

This is rediculous. If you get so seriously injured while attempting a pushup, and you can no longer function in the military or civilian world, you have bigger issues than who to blame....

 

[Infanteer]

This is rediculous. If you get so seriously injured while attempting a pushup, and you can no longer function in the military or civilian world, you have bigger issues than who to blame....

Well, I don't think they are worried about that.  As said before, it was "one Army, one Standard".  If a Reg and a Reservist are nailed by cars while attempting to meet the same standard, there is going to be a different set of consequences for either of them when you compare a contracted soldier to a pay-sheet soldier.

Of course, a reservist contract demands that they show up, which may not appeal to lots of them - hey, maybe it's a good thing then; it'll sure get rid of alot of Reservist chaff who don't want to sign on the dotted line.

 

[GO!!!]

Of course, a reservist contract demands that they show up, which may not appeal to lots of them - hey, maybe it's a good thing then; it'll sure get rid of alot of Reservist chaff who don't want to sign on the dotted line.

Lots of reg f chaff too!

Oh I can't wait to see the reactions of a few of the heavies when they are ordered to be in shape! This is gonna be great!

Merry Christmas!

 

[KevinB]

It is, if you've previously defined "PT" as Pilsner and Tortillas.  Look back to the '93'ish Warrior Program. several members, both Res F and Reg F suffered serious injury (including at least one career ending heart attack) attempting to meet the standard.

- a 3.2km run with rifle, webbing and cbt boots - should be easy enough for anyone in uniform to complete.  I did it then as a reservist and the next year as a regular --
Gen Vernons Warrior Test was an attempt to bring the non SSF part of the Army into fitness and competancey.

HOWEVER, the new requirement for a fitness certification before promotion is a wonderful idea and should be applied to the Class A world as well.  Furthermore, a fitness certification shopuld be a prerequisite for a Class A reservist to occupy any leadership positions on major exercises.

Why?

Because there's nothing more demoralizing than doing personal PT all year long and then being "led" on an FTX by a red-faced, wheezing senior member with a huge shytelocker hanging out below his Tac Vest.

True -- but that happens in the Regs occassionally too.

 

[chrisf]

It's obvious that this issue, like so many others for Reservists, needs to be addressed with a contract.  The notion of the pay sheet should have been abandoned with the myth of the "Citizen Soldier" saving the day; Reservists need to be "fully professional on a part-time basis".

I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about contracting a class A reservist, given that none of us work the same amount, and it's entirely possible, indeed normal, for me not to know when I'm working until a week, even 24 hours, in advance...

On the subject of PT, I don't think, on the surface, it's fair to compare the fitness of a class A reservist to a reg force member, but on the other hand, as somone pointed out, there are still reg force members who fail their PT tests despite being adequate time to work out, and I know myself, as a class A reservist, it's not that hard to find time to work out, despite other commitments.

Seems to me, the simplest solution, is to insure reservists when working out at DND facilities, or approved alternate facilities. Not a perfect solution, but a simple solution.

 

[The_Falcon]

I'm not entirely sure how you'd go about contracting a class A reservist, given that none of us work the same amount, and it's entirely possible, indeed normal, for me not to know when I'm working until a week, even 24 hours, in advance...

You put them on a contract the same way American Reservists and Guardsmen are on a contract.  Some other factors would need to happen as well, but it is possible.  We just need politicos with the intestinal fortitude to make it happen.

 

[chrisf]

You'll have to enlighten me, as I'm not familiar with it, how are American reservists on contract?

 

[Infanteer]

You'll have to enlighten me, as I'm not familiar with it, how are American reservists on contract?

I can't give you the details because I don't know them, but I'm certain some US Reservists here will fill us in.  They do sign contracts that require that they show up for Parade days (although they don't have weekly parades - just one weekend a month) and summer concentrations.

A contract for the Reserves is needed.  It can help:

-  Steady out the brutal rate of personnel overturn (guys getting BMQ and then just quitting - I'd be interested to see how many Reservists units lose in the first year of service)

-  Facilitate Reg-to-Reserve transfers (A big problem for anybody who's tried the CT game)

-  Make it easier to lock a pension for reservists down; guys who serve 25 years in uniform at a part-time level deserve something.

-  Provide for a proper system of job protection and a more systematic way of building bridges with employers.

-  Cover difficult "gray areas" like the Physical Fitness one being discussed here.

-  Ease Army planning for integration of Reserves into training; if you have hard numbers, you can plan courses and exercises; if you consistently have a platoons worth of guys cutting out "'cause of final exams", there is a big problem in getting beyond individual training.  If the Army is guaranteed X reservists, it should be capable of guaranteeing Y in training.

Just my opinion, but I think this is one of the best ways to fix the broken reserve system.

 

[ZipperHead]

Far be it from me to take the sides of the Reserve world (don't tell anyone..... they might think I've gone soft  :'( ), but I think the priority needs to get the Reg Force, and then the Class B & C (which I really don't understand (the difference between B&C, anyway), but I'll pretend I do) into fighting shape. And before "we" (the Reg F) start huffing and puffing about the out of shape Reservists, we need to get our own house in order. Sure, I have seen some pudgy Reserve types floating around, and yes, the average civvy (and a lot of Reg Force even) can't tell the difference between them and a "normal" soldier, there are far too many Reg F porkers floating around, and unfit thin people for that matter. There is too much emphasis on appearance, and not on overall fitness. But, generally a fatty is in worse shape than a bone-rack, but not always.

I was hoping from the title of this thread that the day I dreamed of was soon coming: a hard-core fitness policy that would transform us into what we should be (every soldier a fit to fight soldier), rather than the embarrasment that we have become. I think it could be construed as a shot across the bow of the ships, so to speak, of CO's who haven't been enforcing the policy for fear of losing their "special" people. You know, the one's that everybody says: "You know, they aren't much to look at, but boy are they one heck of a (choose one): pilot/clerk/cook/crewman/FCS tech/Sup Tech/AVN tech/etc,etc)!!" Which can be taken that if you are fit, you aren't much of a pilot/clerk/cook/crewman/etc. Or just because you aren't fit you are the greatest, etc, etc. Face it: it's just an excuse for people to be lazy, and by extension, fat and out of shape.

I have been harping to people for the last year that they have to be ready for when the bar is raised from it's pathetically low level (which a chihuahua with a bad hip, bad knees, and a mini-CADPAT doggy-rucksack full of Kibbles & Bits, could hop over). I will giggle with glee when the first people get the administrative actions taken against them, and start to blow fish-kisses because "I wasn't ready for the NEW standard!!!! But I did sooooo well on the old standard, with that super-duper hard 13km march, and that super-heavy ruck-sack!!! I passed it with 33 seconds to spare!!! On a nice day!!!! With no full mags!!! Or actual warfighting equipment on top of the one set of combats, a pair of lacy underwear, and oh yeah!!! my scarf!!!!!! That was hell, I tell's ya!!!" But that's just because I'm a prick, and actually take the allotted time (and then some) to do my DUTY, and maintain a decent level of fitness. The 1.5 hr lunch hours that it seems most people get, plus all the admin time, and the evenings and weekends, and the regularly scheduled PT (1+ hrs a day) just ISN'T enough!!!!

OK, I've depleted my sarcasm reserves..... time to top up with turkey!!!

Al

 

[UberCree]

This is a major milestone in the CF in my opinion and was a long time comming.  This may be THE most important step towards making the military more combat ready.

 

[geo]

which I really don't understand (the difference between B&C, anyway
Al

Class C VS Class B?
Paid 100% of salary VS paid 85% of salary.........

 

[pbi]

He's basically telling us to do our duty by being fit, and reminding us a) why; and b) that there are consequences to failure.  Might seem like motherhood, but it's something that has been neglected for far too long. I agree in particular with his guidance that it isn't just about PT testing. It's about fostering a mentality in the CF that nobody, regardless of uniform colour, MOC or component, lets themselves become overweight, out of shape embarassments. It's about lifestyle, not spinelessly blaming the CF for putting out nice food that makes undisciplined gobblers fat, or whining about doing PT on your own time. That change of mindset, IMHO, is the real objective.

Cheers

 

[NCRCrow]

PBI:
Agree, with u totally. On the CF doing a "lifestyle change". I would like to see more incentive or emphasis placed on a Exempt score vice one point (on PERS). Or a failure would automatically mean a developing PER. How can u lead and order your troops to follow orders (CFAO 50-1 etc) when you cannot. It sets a bad leadership example and is very hypocritical. I have given people developing PER's (who with a simple EXPRES test would have had a superior or higher) who have failed the EXPRES or have not done it and the **** came down on me from above.

But I proved a point...that directives are to be followed at every level regardless.

The Navy asks for one hour of PT a year for the EXPRES, ntm to ask for the salaries and benefits we enjoy.

In Halifax we have 3 state of the art facilities, plus 2 rinks and two pools. Every ship has space allocated only for PT gear.

The excuses are running out..except if u are on a medical chit and I am no doctor.

Crow...(still bloated from Christmas Turkey)

 

[GO!!!]

I think the proof of the success of this will be in the proverbial pudding.

These rules have been in place for a long time, and they have been disregarded for a long time too.

They will only be successful if the rules are followed at the lowest levels ("Sorry Craftsman Bloggins, you are a great FCS tech, but you are also 300lbs - no promotion") Will the grievance board side with the Sgt.? or the Pte?

Even worse - who will order our esteemed Colonels into the gym, and refuse to promote them if they are too pudgy? I can't see a Bde Commander's career progression being hampered by a little thing like fitness - this problem is far too advanced for that.

I'll believe in this system when I see a Col. removed for failing to get into shape, until then, it's just talk, and talk is cheap.

 

[Bert]

GO!!!

From the CDS new directives, the only difference between what we have now and what is stated is
the requirement for the candidate to have passed the PT test before promotion.  I can't see
how failing the test is good for one's career.  So whats different really then?  Is there objective
information the CF massively promotes members who in the same year failed PT tests?

Theres alot of perceptions of what a "fat" member is.  What's overweight or too pudgy in terms of
a CF medical or fitness standard or your standard?  This is nothing but slagging people for the sake of it
until you define it.

Like PBI wrote, the CF is better to create a more healthier lifestlye and perhaps further by improving
collective PT and setting an objective standard for body fat percentage taking the US Marines and US
Army as examples.  However even in comparasion of US miliary branches (as examples), PT standards
are not the same.

 

[ZipperHead]

I'll believe in this system when I see a Col. removed for failing to get into shape, until then, it's just talk, and talk is cheap.

I agree 100%. This type of thing sounds good, and somebody always gets Mastered in the Leading Change bubble for thinking of policies, or making noises that sound like following them, but until somebody higher up in the food chain gets stopped in their tracks (careerwise), how can it be enforced lower down?!?!?!

Here's an example (nothing to do with fitness) of something I saw not too long ago that might ring true with our audience: People were getting behind in their payments to our School canteen, and the canteen pers dutifully kept track of how much was owed, over how long a period, etc. The lists were sent out to the Sqn's, and the "threat" kept coming down to "pay, or else!!!". Well, because it hadn't been enforced for so long, people disregarded the "or else" part, and took their sweet time paying. Once upon a time at the Armour School, if you were 25 cents owing to the canteen so many days after a pay-day, you were cut off from getting credit for 6 months, and then had to write a memo requesting permission to be allowed the PRIVILEDGE of receiving credit. Any, one time "they" threatened to withhold leave passes if the canteen debt wasn't paid. Yet another hollow threat that came and went. Then it was decided that they were going to get SERIOUS, and if individuals didn't pay, administrative actions were going to be taken. Sounded good and scary, but when one was to peruse the list, there were more than a few Sgt's, WO's, Capt's, Maj's, etc on the "hit list", and were they REALLY going to put a Capt or WO on C&P or Verbal Warning for not paying for the bag of chips they bought 4 months ago, but hadn't bothered paying for since? (I am simplifying it a great deal: there was a substantial amount of money owed by a great number of people (for clothing, accoutrements, etc), and a canteen can't order stock when it's in the red. But people got tired of the huffing and puffing, so they tuned out and shrugged their shoulders, and treated it like an interest free loan). Long story short, there were no career implications/administrative actions taken, IMO because of the large numbers of pers in leadership positions who were just as negligent as the infamous Cpl Bloggins, and "they" wouldn't punish their own, would they?!?!? I think we know the answer to that one......

I will be watching this one with great interest to see how tough "they" are on this. When a Major or WO isn't promoted because of not completing the fitness standard, and are made an example of, and not just shuffled off to die somewhere, I will believe. Until then, I think I may have to file it under "Hollow Threat", and watch and shoot......

Al

 

[buzgo]

Did anyone else hear that there was a 60% failure rate for EXPRES tests in Ottawa?

 

[BKells]

7 of us did it on our PLQ a week ago. All passed, all PRes Class A.

The funny part was about 4 meatheads wern't allowed to do the test because their heart rate was too high. (ephedrine and smoking/drinking coffee all day).

Edit: we're Ottawa area.