New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[rhino18]

To all,


On this topic. I don't believe we need to re-invent the wheel.  It must be the responsibility of each soldier to be in the best shape that they can be at all times.  That said, for some reason, this topics always seem to digress to reserves on one side and regs on another.  The new policies will simply give the units more teeth to employ counselling procedures on those that fail to meet the standard.

At the end of the day if you're an unfit soldier you risk your life and your fire team partners.  And, if you're a leader it your section or platoon.  So,  Get off the computer and go for a RUN.....

PS.. if you're Class A look both ways before cross the street.

Thus endth the rant.

 

[c_canuk]

I think the PERI trade needs to be brought back, as a PRes I've seen bad group PT, either it's too light for me and I loose fitness cause we are going at the pace of the slowest person, or we go at the pace of the fastest person and our fitness cannot develop further becase we don't give our bodies enough time to recover.

Good PT should push you to the limits, then give you time to recover and adapt to the new level of demand.

on my PLQ this summer we ran every day, we never did anything other than a weekly ruck march... I lost 20 lbs of muscle  in my arms and chest, and my mile time decreased, because of lack of rest time for muscle to recover and rebuild, and actual sleep. All that PT that our instructers thought was making us hard was counter productive. Had there been a qualified PERI Staff around to supervise and advise maybe this would not have been the case.

 

[George Wallace]

c_canuk

Obviously, from your statements, you had unqualified Instructors on your course.  PSP regularly trains Unit NCOs in how to conduct PT.  For the most part they are professionals in the Physical Training Field.  As a Reservist, you haven't had the exposure to these 'facilities', but at the same time, your problems with your PT on Course, are also partially your own problem.  You can supplement the PT, that you felt you were lacking, by doing extra training after hours.  It is after all, your call.

 

[NCRCrow]

The PERI's trade was axed for a reason.

I love PSP and the freshness and dedication they exude. They are awesome here in Halifax.

The PERI dynasty is over and I hope it stays that way.

Crow
(UPTA since 94)

 

[ZipperHead]

I agree with George and Crow: the PERI trade wouldn't have helped you on your course, as it is the DS, and not the PERI's, are the one's that would have directed the majority of your PT. There needs to be UPTA courses run so that course staff are doing the correct regimen.

I find that the PSP staff have done a much better job than PERI's did "in the day". There is a much broader knowledge base, with a higher level of trg. As Crow noted, the dedication of the PSP staff seems to be above and beyond (with a few rare exceptions) to what I saw with PERI's.

And, IRT your course canuk, the PT is usually based on trg time available, requirements of course, fitness level of students, etc, so no doubt they did the "classic" run and march PT schedule. I don't neccesarily agree with it, but that type of PT is better than nothing at all.

Al

 

[c_canuk]

I will bow to your gentelmen's experience with PSP vs PERI, I'm not that knowledgeable about the difference between the two, but from what I was lead to believe was that PT was; if not conducted by, it was directed by PERI staff. If this was not the case, then at least for Reserve trg it would be nice if there was someone who could do this.

"You can supplement the PT, that you felt you were lacking, by doing extra training after hours.  It is after all, your call."

After hours? we barely got 5 hours sleep after completing our daily tasks, and at lights out I didn't have the energy regardless. When we did finally Saturday and sunday afternoons off I did go to the gym, but 2 days back to back a week is not enough to maintain muscle mass when you are doing way too much cardio, and are being deprived of sleep.

I don't agree that counter productive PT is better than none, I estimate it's the same, we medically RTU'd 10 people out of 60 before we went to the field. And though my Cardio was in awesome shape, I came home with less muscle and little or no change in body fat.

Keep in mind we marched in FFO aprox 15 km a day on top of daily pt.

 

[ZipperHead]

C_canuk, it sounds like you were (are) in very good shape prior to your PLQ. That's great. However, I'm sure the PT that was done was at a level of the average soldier, and perhaps higher than the average soldier. There is no way that group PT will ever satisfy every single person in a group. At either end of the spectrum someone is either going to find it far too easy or far too hard. At least you had the benefit of being able to pass the physical part with ease (I assume), at the expense of losing muscle mass and some cardio.

Courses like this are meant to have everybody work as a team, and individual-based PT isn't what it's about. I'm sure if you tried to run a PT program that would have suited your training needs, it would have been to the detriment of the others (assuming that they were in worse shape than you). That's the way it is.

The course is over: I'm sure by now you have gotten back to your pre-course shape. Maybe you motivated somebody else. That's about all you can hope for (right now). With any luck, the new policies will force people to be in better shape before they arrive on these courses, and then folks like yourself will be able to maintain, rather than regress, their standard during the course. Remember: now that you have leadership training, you should be one of the one's motivating, inspiring, whipping others into fitness.

Al

 

[NCRCrow]

Wow...Big Al..........good post.............sounds like a PDR/PER debrief

 

[GO!!!]

Keep in mind we marched in FFO aprox 15 km a day on top of daily pt.

Sounds like quite the course - marching 75 km/ week, for 8 weeks.

 

[c_canuk]

Big Al, (if I may also call you that?  )

*shrug*

I suppose so, I didn't think I was in that great of shape overall... just not happy I lost so much Muscle... I'm still putting it back on as I was stuck in the field for 8 more weeks after that on various taskings, but I'm making lots of head way getting it back now that I'm in the Golan.

http://ccanuk.brinkster.net/bosnia/Lookinpimp.jpg thats what I looked like prior to going on course
http://ccanuk.brinkster.net/bosnia/group.jpg front left most soldier

http://ccanuk.brinkster.net/danaca/pics/chllingonthepatio.jpg and that was taken a month ago...

you can see a big difference in just my fore arms... I'm on night shift or I'd be able to find better pics maybe =)

I suppose you are right though... I just wish there had been either more time to work out on my own, or more variety in the mandatory PT, we can't always get what we want though eh? 



GO!!!

75 km a week... yeah I guess it was that much... it was about 2km to the mess from the shacks, 2 more the the MTF, 2 for lunch, 2 back to the MTF, 2 for supper, 2 to the MTF, and 3-4 finally back the shacks... Shilo is pretty spaced out and we living in the condemned school by the PMQs...

we had lots of problems with blisters early on, glad to say I muscled through mine though I was worried I might get an infection, but ditching my old combat slippers with the irregularly worn heels and sticking to my other barely worn in set helped a lot.

Overall the course was probably the toughest one I've ever been on, including being one of 2 siggies on an Arty basic trg... but looking back on it, I'm glad I'm done, and that I succeeded and made it to middle third, when a lot of people didn't even pass. My Section was and is really tight even though most of us never seen eachother before... pressure made us gel and only one of my section got RTUd, and we consistently did very well.

Looking back I mainly only remember the good times.

 

[armyvern]

Keep in mind we marched in FFO aprox 15 km a day on top of daily pt.

Wow, Just where did you do this PLQ at? Here in Gagetown? Aldershot? I'll have to ask your C Clerk at 722, Nancy, what are the odds of me getting some of my troops on this course as they could certainly use the PT you managed to get at whatever location.

Bet you're really doing some extra work-outs in the good old Golan now as the PT there don't compare with that from your PLQ either. Please, PM me and let me know where you did your course at. 

Edited: No need to reply...just read your below post. Nice patio in the background...still climbing that pole?? I miss it. 

 

[George Wallace]

Don't worry Vern.....most of us never considered the two Km march from the shack to the Classroom in the TLF or whatever it was called in Edmonton and then to 1.9 km march from the classroom to the Mess Hall and then 1.9 Km march back to class then the 2 Km march back to the shacks as totals towards any PT regime before.  I imagine if I was in Gagetown those numbers may have doubled.  ;D

 

[armyvern]

Don't worry Vern.....

I'm not George. Whew...I thought that I had really missed something here. But I haven't it seems as I don't count it towards my PT if I don't have my ruck on my back while marching. I still remember Cornwallis...so based on to the Mess/classrooms etc, I could add on about 15k of running per day on top of those 2.5 hour daily PT periods.

Edited to add : in my damn combat boots!!

 

[Patrolman]

I also wonder were this course was run. I just finished instucting on a PLQ in the not distant past and I am amazed so much was done in so little time.
I will agree for someone who is good shape your pt wll suffer. Part of the problem is the condition students arrive on crse in. when students arrive on course they are supposed to have a copy of their last pt testing. A lot of times this testing is written off for the ind. so they can attend course. Do you think a CO who is in desperate need of NCO's is going to say I can't send Cpl. Bloggins because he is fat! NO. He is going to write the test off and he will be on course. This in turn drops the course pt way down. It is my opinion the first morning of course there should be a Pt test run by PSP, any who fails should be rtu'D.
I am still amazed so much marching took place.Your staff must have had in for you making you wear FFO everywhere you went.

 

[ZipperHead]

I am still amazed so much marching took place.Your staff must have had in for you making you wear FFO everywhere you went.

I think that this is the way that courses should be conducted. Some of my buddies went to Ft Knox and Camp Pendleton to observe the way the US trains their soldiers in their version of DP1. They march/patrol everywhere, so that it is second nature to be doing so. That way they are used to wearing their equipment, and always being in formation. I really think this is the way all courses should be conducted. The CF is still trying to shrug off the complacency of the 70's and 80's (and 90's one could argue).

We should be following the lead of the US, as they are at war, and it doesn't take too long to go from peacetime (although with soldiers deployed in Afghanistan, I don't know if we can say we are in a peacetime military...) to war. It's far better to be prepared and ready, than to scramble to get ready (sound familiar????..... in other words, all the 'work up' training that we are forever conducting before any mission).

I think if the powers-that-be realized that it would be far more economical and efficient to conduct our training PROPERLY at the beginning of a soldier/airman/sailor's career, we wouldn't have to spend so much time (re)training people to get ready to go on tour. How many stories have we all heard/experienced of people (and not all are CSS trades) that simply can't do weapons handling, or main a gate, or a defensive position, because they were never trained???? "We don't have time!!!!!". Well that time has to be made up at some point doesn't it!?!?! And the same goes for PT: if PT is put into training so that it becomes part of the culture (like it was in the "day"), soldiers will stay fit throughout their careers. If it's "on again, off again", people get frustrated and say "Screw it!!!!", and how many times have we all see that PT becomes the first victim when the workplace gets busy?!??!

Al

 

[c_canuk]

Vern,

So you know Nancy eh? wondered how long it would take before someone had less than 6 degrees of seperation on me =) small military suprised it took this long, I actually haven't climbed the pole I'm on the dark side as Sig Det IC at the moment. the draw down is taking up a lot of my time but the gym here is much better and I get to do PT on my own time other than when I go to the other side for the Tac Marches, so I'm happy.


George

I mention it cause it was pretty hard on a bunch of people early on as we had to go at a really fast pace to meet our timings, after 3 weeks it was business as usual, though the load of books we had to cart around got heavier and we had 4 C9s unslung per section rather than the usual 2, though I'm told the C9 weighs as much as the FN did so maybe we should have carried C9s all around.


Patrolman

it was run in Shilo by Comres with a few PLF guys mixed into the DS


Big Al

I kinda expected we'd be marching everywhere, as every other course I've been on, I've had to march everywhere, just in kingston everything is around the parade square and there is a shuttle from the McNaughton side if thats where your shacks are. FFO is new but I expected that cause it was a combat skills and not a trade course.

 

[armyvern]

Vern,
So you know Nancy eh? wondered how long it would take before someone had less than 6 degrees of seperation on me =) small military

I know lots of people!! Nancy's a card, lives up the road from me. Just another red-headed girl!!
Next time you're in CZ, stop by Supply and give Cpl Brake a kick in the butt from me!!

Ya gotta make it up that pole at least once, no tour is complete without it!!

 

[WogCpl]

Well, after a lot of reading I'll throw in a couple of cents. First off the 13.2 is probably the biggest joke i have ever seen. I have watched very large people pass it with little difficulty and lighter folks who are very fit have a harder time with it, but still pass. How does packing a useless kit list to a designated weight prove anything, if you are going to ruck make it a reasonable list (x# of days rats,x# of days water, and a basic load of ammo w/relation to your function)

As for the express test it's not a bad judge of over all fitness but the standards are low! As for the no promotion angle that is great but as long as it's all promotions including Pte to Cpl! But, does that mean that someone could be a fat Sgt for ever, they still have to do the test every year and pass or face carreer action so how is that an incentive? Maybe leadership positions should have a higher standard of fitness than your average joe. I was recently in borden on a course and had a look at the 6A's that were passing through and maybe 3 out of about 30 were in good shape. What does that say to the troops.

As far as daily PT goes if anyone has ever tried crossfit, (www.crossfit.com) it's quick, painfull and will sometimes make you puke. But if you want to get in shape, or stay in shape but don't have a lot of time it's a good tool!

Hopefully, this new fitness policy will have an effect, but i am not optimistic. I guess i will just stick with personal pride and the satisfaction of knowing i can perform my job, and still soldier to a basic level. After all, in the end we are all soldiers are'nt we?

 

[ZipperHead]

I was going to mention Crossfit at some point, but in my mind, it is a more advanced type of PT (it can be, at any rate), and it is better to sell the product that the Army is selling (the AF Manual trg). Crossfit is just circuit training on steroids, really. Don't get me wrong: I have done a few workouts, and almost earned my "pukie" badge on one of the 'tamer' ones.

In the new year (i.e next week) I am going to shake off my Xmas cobwebs, and start the Crossfit in earnest. If you haven't looked at it, give it a look-see. Very easy to start a regimen, though many of the exercises are all about technique, so don't overload on those. If anyone thinks that the programs are easy: try it before you knock it!!!! One of the ones I tried looked pretty easy, and took twice as long as I planned, and I was ready to hurl only half-way through.

I wouldn't be surprised if Crossfit (or something like it (like the workouts in the AFM))  becomes the flavour of the year, in regards to people's workouts, as you can easily tailor programs to each individual (strengths, weaknesses, injuries) and it doesn't take a lot of time to do a workout. In fact, if you read through some of the theory, it is better to do these style of workouts compared to endless miles on the treadmill, straight weightlifting, etc. Mind you, every exercise routine seems to be "better" than anything else (they gotta sell books, magazines, health-club memberships.....).

Al

 

[WogCpl]

You said it Al !
As far as the AFM goes, I have to say i read it and it seems like a well thought out program, and is very progressive, it would be awesome if people used it.
If you are going to try cross fit do like Al says, and stick the technique, but don't get hung up on the specifics either, if you dont think that you can lift a certain weight, go for a lighter one, if reps are too high, don't do as many etc.