New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[paracowboy]

this is in no way meant to abrogate the CF of what I think it's responsibilites are to the Reserves' fitness, but is there no way that individual units can raise funds to buy their own gym equipment, and put it in the Armouries?

I realize it does nothing to address the issues brought up, but it would give the troops access to a 'free' gym.

 

[a23trucker]

Who pays for this?

-Reseve units?  Most have around $15-30K of unfunded non-deliverables every year as it is.
-CFPSA?  Most civvy contracted CF gyms (at least in the NCR) either harshly limit or deny entry to Class A members
-Support base?  Possibly, but will recover the cost from the Reserve unit's O&M.

in any case, throwing Class A money at the problem might work, assuming the money existed in the first place (which is usually doesn't).

I'm hoping the the new DAOD on fitness will address pension coverage for "off duty" (i.e not signed in) Reservists doing PT.  Not holding my breath, though.

Bingo......you've nailed it.......
The BFT requirement for the reserves was dropped because of the cost of providing adequate work-up training/PT sustainment & the cost of injuries caused during that trg.
(I was the investigating officer for one of the first cases where an injury occurred during the BFT. Guess what the finding said; The reserves can't afford the policy to make it's soldiers comply.)
There are ways around this issue, but it will require policies that will make the beancounters cringe.
Cheers
AM

 

[orange.paint]

If the directives are coming out on reserve fitness,forcing units to test and comply with current fitness standards the money has to be there.If a standard is going to be allotted to the reg/res there has to be a plan to implement it. Monetary and logistically.

Leaders wouldn't give a problem without a solution and direction.Lets wait out, let the bean counters count or stare at their beans and figure it out.

(I was the investigating officer for one of the first cases where an injury occurred during the BFT. Guess what the finding said; The reserves can't afford the policy to make it's soldiers comply.)
There are ways around this issue, but it will require policies that will make the beancounters cringe.
Cheers
AM

Just wondering when this was?And if it wasn't a viable plan to implement the fitness testing on reserves how come the new directives are targeting this? Maybe the class A would be more suited towards the express test as testing ?

Fitness cost money and time.No one with any grain would put foward this plan and not plan the budget for this.

 

[Haggis]

this is in no way meant to abrogate the CF of what I think it's responsibilites are to the Reserves' fitness, but is there no way that individual units can raise funds to buy their own gym equipment, and put it in the Armouries?

I realize it does nothing to address the issues brought up, but it would give the troops access to a 'free' gym.

There is a fitness grant given to Reserve units every year (based on a dollar amount per solider on their parades state).  Normally it's no more than a few hundred bucks.  That's enough to buy one, maybe two, civvy gym memberships.  (Usually it is spent on equipment upkeep for existing stuff  like ball hockey sticks, a basketball/football/soccer ball etc.)  Civvy gyms have quickly caught on that these one or two memberships are being shared amongst 40-50 troops and have demanded that the units (perceived as a bottomless pit of government money, thanks to Adscam etc.) cough up for memberships for each and every user.

There are other sources of money available to Reserve units as well:  Unit Fund, NPF, Regimental Association etc. but there are restrictions on what this money can be spent on.  In a nutshell, if it is (or should be) available through "the system" then the money cannot be spent on it.  Whether "the system" can or cannot provide it (i.e no funding in "the system") is not the issue.  It simply becomes another non-deliverable.

If the directives are coming out on reserve fitness,forcing units to test and comply with current fitness standards the money has to be there.  If a standard is going to be allotted to the reg/res there has to be a plan to implement it. Monetary and logistically.

Really?

Did your unit see any addtional funding to cover SHARP? Diversity? Radiation safety? WHMIS?  Other annually "mandated training"? 

And if it wasn't a viable plan to implement the fitness testing on reserves how come the new directives are targeting this?

The DAOD is to target fitness within the CF as a whole.  It will not be a Reg or Res specific directive.

 

[paracowboy]

There is a fitness grant given to Reserve units every year (based on a dollar amount per solider on their parades state).  Normally it's no more than a few hundred bucks.  That's enough to buy one, maybe two, civvy gym memberships.  (Usually it is spent on equipment upkeep for existing stuff  like ball hockey sticks, a basketball/football/soccer ball etc.)  Civvy gyms have quickly caught on that these one or two memberships are being shared amonst 40-50 troops and have demanded that the units (perceived as a bottomless pit of government money, thanks to Adscam etc.) cough up for memberships for each and every user.

There are other sources of money available to Reserve units as well:  Unit Fund, NPF, Regimental Association etc. but there are restrictions on what this money can be spent on.  In a nutshell, if it is (or should be) available through "the system" then the money cannot be spent on it.  Whether "the system" can or cannot provide it (i.e no funding in "the system") is not the issue.  It simply becomes another non-deliverable.

is there no way that the diverse sources of funds can be used together? 100 bucks from this, 20 from that, 75 from the other thing?

What about approaching the gyms and saying that they can advertise "Canadian Soldiers work out here! Ladies, take note!" (Or words to that effect), in order to get reduced rates or even free memberships?

Instead of buying hockey sticks or soccer balls, why not see if you can get those donated, and buy sports equipment more oriented towards ersistance workouts? Maybe some kettle bells or dumbells and some Crossfit acoutrements? See if any of the local Fitness Instructors would be willing to donate their time to come into the Armoury and beast the troopies? Or maybe some local sensei, sifu, or kru would do so? Approach a local boxing club, and see if they'd be willing to accomodate?

What about other forms of fund-raising? Hitting up Daddy Warbucks for some donated gym equipment?

Would any of these be viable? Can you state that the PT periods (for lack of a better word) mentioned above would be parades? Would that address the insurance issues, at all?

 

[a23trucker]

Can you state that the PT periods (for lack of a better word) mentioned above would be parades? Would that address the insurance issues, at all?

Sorry we would like to but all "parades" must be paid or not conducted. Area directives forbids all voluntary parades (rules are as a result of the voluntary pay sheets for insurance purposes when units ran out of money at the end of the fiscal year; "Pink Paysheets" of the 80's & 90's)

Cheers
AM

 

[Haggis]

Sorry we would like to but all "parades" must be paid or not conducted. Area directives forbids all voluntary parades (rules are as a result of the voluntary pay sheets for insurance purposes when units ran out of money at the end of the fiscal year; "Pink Paysheets" of the 80's & 90's)

In fact, it's not an area directive, it's a CMP directive (ADM (Hr-Mil) Instruction 20-04) which prohibits "unpaid" training: http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/2004_V16_admhrmil_e.asp?cat=1#2.14

2.14 Voluntary Service

Under article 203.065 of the QR&O, a member of the Res F who is serving on other than a period of Cl “C” Res Svc is entitled to be paid for each day of service. Therefore, voluntary service without pay is not permitted.

Paracowboy:  All your ideas have merit and many have probably been tried.  Although it may work on civvy street, the creative allocation of funding is the kiss of death for a Reserve unit CO (if s/he gets caught).

Let's try another approach to this debate. (Mods: you may want to split this off to another thread?). Who has tried what?  Has it worked? Why?  Has it failed?  Why? 

I'll start.  Here's one I'm trying:

In my company I have instituted a Fitness Challenge.  I tested the troops "unofficially" back in mid March on 2.4 km run, pushups, sit ups and chin-ups.  Then, once they'd put out max effort, I told them they would be re-tested again in 12 weeks.  Then I told them that most improved soldier in each of the four test components and the most improved overall would win "cool" prizes donated by myself, other company leadership and the Regimental Association.  Lastly I threw the Army Fitness Manual at them and turned them loose.

No PER consequences as the test are "unofficial".

No funding constraints as the prizes are donated and the soldier is not forced to compete, therefore no Class A pay or benefits.

No coercion, no pressure, no consequences.  It's all voluntary.  The only pre-condition is that if you don't train, then you won't improve.  If you don't improve then you can't win a prize.  Simple as that.  They have three weeks until re-test time.

So, folks, lets's hear from other units (Reg F or Res F) who have tried a similar approach and what their end results were.

 

[orange.paint]

We were tested on the AFM last September or October.Honestly it was an eye opener for many including myself.Although not level 2 or below I had previously thought I would be all level 4...boy was I wrong.

We were suppose to be retested in march however its may and the armoured school has dropped the ball on fitness yet again.

Back during roto13 to Bosnia and prior to and during workup training we were tested by coopers test once a month (9 months I believe) like clock work.ALL results were posted on a spread sheet to every troop to put up on our message boards.It was a great incentive to work your ass off as everyone in your peer group and leadership would see where you stood.Sort of like shame but nicer.

I do like the idea of reward for good work.Personally I wouldn't want the leadership to fork out money but simply say here is a blank leave pass for next Monday or Friday ....GO!!!!! Nothing says 100% than trying to get a day away from the office. ;D

Good work Haggis,
How about if your guys are class A make the reward a month gym membership or something.

 

[Haggis]

Back during roto13 to Bosnia and prior to and during workup training we were tested by coopers test once a month (9 months I believe) like clock work.ALL results were posted on a spread sheet to every troop to put up on our message boards.It was a great incentive to work your *** off as everyone in your peer group and leadership would see where you stood.Sort of like shame but nicer.

Yes, I remember that.  My troops and I were in the gym constantly.  When my camp closed and we moved to VK, the results showed compared to the units already there  .

I do like the idea of reward for good work.  Personally I wouldn't want the leadership to fork out money but simply say here is a blank leave pass for next Monday or Friday ....GO!!!!! Nothing says 100% than trying to get a day away from the office. ;D

Although that's good for Reg F, Class B and C soldiers it's not much for Class A types, hence the prizes (all troops, Reg F or Res F like shiny shyte ;D)  As this would be short leave, it could be harder to do at some units.  At NDHQ, for example, short leave requires the CO/Director/DG's authorization.  In many cases that Director/DG is a civvy and all s/he sees is a day of productivity walking out the door.  (I'm lucky.  My civvy bosses see and understand the benefits of a fit staff; Reg F, Res F and Public Service.)

How about if your guys are class A make the reward a month gym membership or something.

I though of that but didn't go that route for two reasons:  First, at this time, it wasn't feasable.  Most of the troops will be gone for the summer shortly after the challenge ends.  Second, my previous experience with civvy gyms leads me to beleive that they view the CF (along with emergency services agencies like cops, firefighters and EMT/paramedics) who MUST be fit and NEED a gym, as some kind of cash cow.  Hence my observation two posts ago about thier reluctance to allow shared memberships.  As a result, my prizes are things the troops can use in the field, not golf shirts and beer mugs.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

Canforgen(087-06) just came out. It outlines what will be in the DAOD's.

Recap;
No Promotion with out applicable PT test pass. This is for Reg F, and P Res Class A, B, C AND MEMBERS OF THE SUPP RES, CIC, AND CANADIAN RANGERS WHEN
ATTACH POSTED OR SECONDED TO EITHER THE REG F OR P RES.(for class A, and B under 180 days, there is a 2 year implementation program to get people used to running the tests, and stuff. Though pass of the test immediatly will still be required for promotion.)
If you are on a med cat exempting you from PT test, it will go for a MAXIMUM of 3 years, with no chance for renewal.
P Res, appointment to MCpl, or any rank higher then Cpl, will be based off Merit and availability(plus the normal, PT, Med, ect.)
Reg F, appointment to MCpl, or to the rank of Cpl or above, will be based off Merit and availability(plus the normal, PT, Med, ect.)
MBR's aged 56-60 will still be required to pass the EXPRESS test at the 35+ age standards, but no admin action will be taken.
MBR's aged 56-60 who do not meet the standard(35+) will be considered on a case by case basis for promotion, career courses, and reserve employment, by the approving authority with proper JAG advice.

 

[buzgo]

You will see the policy regarding pers aged 56+ changing (50+ I believe) as CFSPA is currently doing the study to determine the EXPRES standards for that age group.

 

[orange.paint]

1
If the CF member …fails on the first attempt to meet the MPFS
the CF member is …placed in remedial physical fitness training for up to twelve weeks
Then the CF member is …re-evaluated to the MPFS
If......pass – no further action.

fail – go to Step 2.

2
fails on the second attempt to meet the MPFS:
result:issued a RW; and placed in remedial physical fitness training for up to twelve weeks.
re-evaluated to the MPFS.
pass – no further action.

fail – go to Step 3


3
fails on the third attempt to meet the MPFS:

result: placed on C&P and in remedial physical fitness training for up to twelve weeks.
       

re-evaluated to the MPFS.
pass – no further action.

fail – go to Step 4


4
fails on the fourth attempt to meet the MPFS:
resultlaced in remedial physical fitness training for up to twelve weeks and given the opportunity during the six-month period of the C&P, or an extension of the period of C&P if necessary, to be:

re-evaluated to the MPFS; or

evaluated to the common task fitness standard.
The approval of a CF medical care provider is required for the CF member to attempt the common task fitness evaluation. If approval is not given, the CF member is subject to an AR and probable release.


is re-evaluated to the MPFS.
pass – no further action.

fail – AR conducted and probable release.

is evaluated to the common task fitness standard.
pass – CF member is assigned a physical fitness training program by PSP, where available, in order to meet the MPFS; and

evaluation cycle restarts.

fail – AR conducted and probable release.


neat spread sheet I found thought I would post it for all who is wondering about courses of action that can be taken.

 

[Patrolman]

When I kick started this thread back on page 21 I had mentioned I was doing the Fredericton Half-Marathon. The race was last Sunday.I finished in 1hr 44mins and 44 secs. 49th out of 321 and 5/13 in my age group. Not bad for a first timer.
And nothing has changed at my work place either, still plenty of overweight persons reg force and reserve drawing a paycheck every two weeks.

 

[orange.paint]

good job on the freddy half.Wish I had done it,plq mod 6 destroyed ALL my race plans this month.I did however land a evening job at running room,they approached me!

yep same situation down the road patrolman.

 

[paracowboy]

rcac_011,

once again, please put some effort into your posts. We spend a great deal of time tellin' these kids to stay in school, we jack 'em for msn speak and improper grammar, and you're typin' posts that are barely intelligible. It's like jackin' a recruit for his pocket being undone, with a Cpl right there: hands in pockets, and boots unbloused. You follow me?

You spend a lot of time on here ranting against the fatness of the Forces. If you're so against laziness, how come you can't run your posts through spell check?

You've stated previously that you've completed your PLQ. Good luck with PDR season.

Grammar, Punctuation, Capitalization, Sentence Structure, Presentation:
Grammar and Sentence Structures - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327.0.html

Re: Grammar and Sentence Structures - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327/post-340105.html#msg340105

Language skills are not an unimportant attribute - and the increasing opportunity and requirement to communicate on the internet emphasizes the need to be able to express oneself clearly and concisely, developing logical arguments in open debate and be able not only to understand others, but to make oneself understood. And none who follow basic principles of good language usage will be diminished for it. Especially those who are in a Leadership position. The way you write may not be indicative of how smart and capable you really are, but it is indicative of how smart people are going to think you are.

para-mod-boy

 

[Michael Dorosh]

There is a fitness grant given to Reserve units every year (based on a dollar amount per solider on their parades state).  Normally it's no more than a few hundred bucks.  That's enough to buy one, maybe two, civvy gym memberships.  (Usually it is spent on equipment upkeep for existing stuff  like ball hockey sticks, a basketball/football/soccer ball etc.)  Civvy gyms have quickly caught on that these one or two memberships are being shared amongst 40-50 troops and have demanded that the units (perceived as a bottomless pit of government money, thanks to Adscam etc.) cough up for memberships for each and every user.

We discussed this at some committee meeting I was tagged as NCM rep for one day; my understanding is that the grant has to be spent on something tangible - ie equipment as you point out. Memberships at a gym were ruled out as not being "tangible".

 

[GO!!!]

We discussed this at some committee meeting I was tagged as NCM rep for one day; my understanding is that the grant has to be spent on something tangible - ie equipment as you point out. Memberships at a gym were ruled out as not being "tangible".

Hmmmmmm..... >

I would consider a digital camera "tangible".

This would be an excellent idea for all units, reg and reserve.

Take a picture of each soldier, stripped to the waist (with the obvious bra for females) and post it, 8.5x11, full color,  in the hallway/office door of that persons work area, so that everyone who speaks to them knows how seriously they take PT, and by extension, their jobs.

After all, a wee bit of humiliation may come in handy where no amount of C&P ever could!

 

[sgtdixon]

We discussed this at some committee meeting I was tagged as NCM rep for one day; my understanding is that the grant has to be spent on something tangible - ie equipment as you point out. Memberships at a gym were ruled out as not being "tangible".

A gym membership may not be tangible.
But the rolls of fat poking out under the Tac Vest are QUITE tangible.

but hey, what do I know, Im a Pte(R) awaiting BMQ/SQ/DP1
albeit a Pte who dropped from 310lbs in gr12 of high school, to 225 as of current, who runs 3x weekly and hits the gym on Edmonton Garrison 2x weekly.

 

[Hot Lips]

I reiterate, that being physically fit...ought not just be a job requirement...it ought to be a personal health goal.

Canadian society on a whole has obesity and sedentary lifestyle issues...and they are growing...pardon the pun.  Health care feels the weight in an overloaded system and much of it to do with obesity related health issues...such as diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, wear and tear injuries on joints...and the list goes on

This article speaks of why we ought to be physically fit...and not just for the sake of it...but because it affects most other aspects of ones life...in a positive way...specifically ones ability to be more productive at work.

http://health.allrefer.com/news/index.php?ID=5248

HL

 

[geo]

For anyone who has access to the DIN, might I bring your attention to CANFORGEN 87 thru 89/06 & DOADs 5023-0 thru 2.

Reservists on Class A have 2 years to "shape up" (unless you're due for promotion).

Things should start to get interesting.

If you're employable, you're deployable. If you're deployable - you gotta be fit!!