New Dress Regs 🤣

[Halifax Tar]

The problem is a lack of enforcement of standards.

And a weak corps of PO2s to CPO1s that are scared to be vocal about transgressions.

The bearded Vikings I saw all belonged to NTOG. The members of ships coy had handle bars. I haven't seen anyone who is in a position to wear an SCBA have a full beard.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Except that the new Dress Regs are also an order issued by the CDS. So which one do you follow, and which one overides the other, and who decides?

Where I come from we use to call that a clusterfuck. And it's not found only in the military: The company I work for right now has this confusing thing where Human Ressources makes it clear that no use of a personnal cell phone will be tolerated during working hours (or else, you are written up), while the supply side of the house requires you to take pictures of transport breakage of items with your phone to send them before any replacement is authorised, because IT has locked down all the USB ports for security reason and will not release them for our previously issued cameras. Go figure!

The dress regs don't override safety/operational requirements, and specifically say those take precedence. The RPP is a safety requirement (and falls under the CAF safety program). Pretty simple; anyone that needs to do firefighting needs to be clean shaven along the sealing face.

It's pretty easy if anyone is confused to simply ask; every base has RPP reps and a lead (usually the base fire department). There is also a RCN fire safety lead, and LCMM for the SCBA that would tell them the same. Everytime they've asked for over a decade this has been explained.

Similarly religious accomodations don't override safety/operational requirements.

@Halifax Tar it's been observed a few times by folks coming to DC schools for fit tests, during ST exercises, and all over ship's social media posts. Don't really care about NTOG, but if they are on deployed CPFs there should be enough core crew (which really is 1-2 ships).

The problem is the CPFs with min crew, AOPs, MCDVs and Orcas which all have way too small of a team to allow a lot of non-DC folks, and alongside with 6 person duty watches you don't have room for non-DC pers either. So basically 95% of the fleet has no float.

This is all well known and should be enforced, but no one wants to touch it. We have a a few major events a year, and minor fires every month, plus multiple near misses every month, so really just a matter of time before this goes from a theoretical risk to someone getting hurt, because people won't just enforce the actual regs.

 

[Halifax Tar]

it's been observed a few times by folks coming to DC schools for fit tests, during ST exercises, and all over ship's social media posts. Don't really care about NTOG, but if they are on deployed CPFs there should be enough core crew (which really is 1-2 ships).

The problem is the CPFs with min crew, AOPs, MCDVs and Orcas which all have way too small of a team to allow a lot of non-DC folks, and alongside with 6 person duty watches you don't have room for non-DC pers either. So basically 95% of the fleet has no float.

This is all well known and should be enforced, but no one wants to touch it. We have a a few major events a year, and minor fires every month, plus multiple near misses every month, so really just a matter of time before this goes from a theoretical risk to someone getting hurt, because people won't just enforce the actual regs.

I haven't seen the full beards people are going on about is all I'm saying. I follow the social media as well. I saw a Rabbi with one, something tells me he won't be dauning an SCAB in SHTF scenario. That dood will be cleansing souls.

I'm going back to sea in the summer. I'll let you know what I see.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I haven't seen the full beards people are going on about is all I'm saying. I follow the social media as well. I saw a Rabbi with one, something tells me he won't be dauning an SCAB in SHTF scenario. That dood will be cleansing souls.

Sure, but even goatees etc are an issue. One of the ST exercises had folks from adjacent ships showing up with goatees in bunker gear.

Seems to be more common on the west coast, and more widespread in non-combatants, but they have so few watertight sections it's actually worse in some respects, and they need even better air management.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I haven't seen the full beards people are going on about is all I'm saying. I follow the social media as well. I saw a Rabbi with one, something tells me he won't be dauning an SCAB in SHTF scenario. That dood will be cleansing souls.

This whole Non-DC & DC designated pers reminds me of that scene from We Were Soldiers when the reporter tries to tell the Gunny he is a non-combatant LOL

"AIN'T NO SUCH THING TODAY BOY!"

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It would also help if the CAF took steps to beat some sense into its members; in that occasional tailoring, polishing, dry cleaning, and maintaining a uniform is a personal responsibility. The Crown provides you with the cloth, it's the member that turns it into a uniform in accordance with the CFDI, Environmental Instructions, and individual Branch/Corps/Regimental instructions.

"I shouldn't have to pay for this... it's the Crown's responsi-"

Ack... but it's YOUR responsibility to not look like a bag of milk in uniform. Personal pride and the odd buck here and there does wonders for that....

Members should not have to pay for anything related to their uniforms unless it is optional.

Placing that expectation on your troops is bullshit so I hope you don’t. They should be using every dollar they have to their own benefit.

Eg - base tailor won’t take in the ridiculously large LS and SS DEU shirts except for GOFOs. The troops should not have to or be expected to pay for that out of pocket.

I’ll decide what I do/do not pay for out of my disposable income for ceremonial or service dress; I already have to buy Sqn patches etc for my op dress.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Members should not have to pay for anything related to their uniforms unless it is optional.

You know as well as I do that should, shouldn't and what actually happens are all different things.

Placing that expectation on your troops is bullshit so I hope you don’t. They should be using every dollar they have to their own benefit.

I put the expectation that my troops will be well turned out and properly dressed for what the Crown asks them to do. How they come to that conclusion is a personal responsibility. You need a new beret because yours looks like ass? Cool. Order a new one on Logistik and get a badge put on it. Oh you fucked that off and didn't get one for the parade we have known about for 2 months? Looks like you're off to the CANEX to pay the Stupidity Tax. Just like I have had to in the past.

Eg - base tailor won’t take in the ridiculously large LS and SS DEU shirts except for GOFOs. The troops should not have to or be expected to pay for that out of pocket.

I am in full agreement that the Base Tailoring model is ridiculous. All or none. That said, I won't nit pick with my troops on that kind of stuff, but like I said above: piss poor planning on your part doesn't change the fact you're not properly turned out. Tailoring is something to put into your time appreciation.

Its the same thing with dudes playing Tunic roulette right before Remembrance Day; sort your shit out within the timelines available and then you don't have to pay the Stupid Tax.

I’ll decide what I do/do not pay for out of my disposable income for ceremonial or service dress; I already have to buy Sqn patches etc for my op dress.

You do you. I paid more out of pocket in 3 years working civvy side than I have in 16 years in uniform. The CAF is one of the few employers that provide all manner of equipment for your to do your job. Taking personal pride in your appearance and kit maintenence isn't a CAF responsibility, but a personal one. The CAF enforces the requirement.

Next thing we know there will be demands for Kiwi and Brasso to be LPOed by the QM...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Members should not have to pay for anything related to their uniforms unless it is optional.

Placing that expectation on your troops is bullshit so I hope you don’t. They should be using every dollar they have to their own benefit.

Eg - base tailor won’t take in the ridiculously large LS and SS DEU shirts except for GOFOs. The troops should not have to or be expected to pay for that out of pocket.

I’ll decide what I do/do not pay for out of my disposable income for ceremonial or service dress; I already have to buy Sqn patches etc for my op dress.

I dunno. We should be expected to maintain the uniforms. If that means dry cleaning or what you pay in power and water home so be it. That's part of the job. Most places make you pay for uniforms. Think of the base tailor like public health care. It's free but its slow, going private will cost but it will be quicker.

As for tailoring, those are local contracts set up by your BSup organization. Having a chat with them might get that changed for future contracts. I to think it's stupid that GOFOs get something for free that the peasantry has to pay for.

As far as I know any DEU item is up for tailoring in Halifax. Operational kit is a whole other ball of wax. I haven't seen an exclusivity for GOFOs.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure, but even goatees etc are an issue. One of the ST exercises had folks from adjacent ships showing up with goatees in bunker gear.

Seems to be more common on the west coast, and more widespread in non-combatants, but they have so few watertight sections it's actually worse in some respects, and they need even better air management.

Like I said I'm going back to sea this summer, I will be shocked if I see beards on the crew.

 

[ModlrMike]

Like I said I'm going back to sea this summer, I will be shocked if I see beards on the crew.

A number of my sailors have full or partial beards, but all of them know, and are so briefed by the Coxn that when they go to sea, the beard comes off.

 

[OldSolduer]

OH you old fogie!!!

I apologize for this - I may have spelt "fogie" incorrectly. It is spelled "fogey".

 

[Halifax Tar]

A number of my sailors have full or partial beards, but all of them know, and are so briefed by the Coxn that when they go to sea, the beard comes off.

Are you referencing NRDs ? I only ask as your profile says you've been in HMCS Chippawa since 2010.

 

[lenaitch]

Many people don't understand you're supposed to take your stuff from Logistik Unicorp to the tailor shop for final fitting.

The length of people's DEU pants these days is ridiculous. Drives me bananas.

It must be something they learn in tailoring university. OPP uniforms (which as far as I know have no relationship with Logistik) are fitted so that there is several inches of material puddled around your feet. It's one thing on the general service (patrol) uniform to be a bit long since a lot of time is spent sitting, but another for the dress (long tunic) order.

I always felt the long tunic without a belt looks unfinished, but that's just what I'm used to. I still miss the Sam Browne with the long tunic.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You know as well as I do that should, shouldn't and what actually happens are all different things.



I put the expectation that my troops will be well turned out and properly dressed for what the Crown asks them to do. How they come to that conclusion is a personal responsibility. You need a new beret because yours looks like ass? Cool. Order a new one on Logistik and get a badge put on it. Oh you fucked that off and didn't get one for the parade we have known about for 2 months? Looks like you're off to the CANEX to pay the Stupidity Tax. Just like I have had to in the past.



I am in full agreement that the Base Tailoring model is ridiculous. All or none. That said, I won't nit pick with my troops on that kind of stuff, but like I said above: piss poor planning on your part doesn't change the fact you're not properly turned out. Tailoring is something to put into your time appreciation.

Its the same thing with dudes playing Tunic roulette right before Remembrance Day; sort your shit out within the timelines available and then you don't have to pay the Stupid Tax.



You do you. I paid more out of pocket in 3 years working civvy side than I have in 16 years in uniform. The CAF is one of the few employers that provide all manner of equipment for your to do your job. Taking personal pride in your appearance and kit maintenence isn't a CAF responsibility, but a personal one. The CAF enforces the requirement.

Next thing we know there will be demands for Kiwi and Brasso to be LPOed by the QM...

No arguments on the putting effort into maintaining a standard; that includes having proper fitting items that are provided at no cost including delivery.

Kiwi - the updated version of 264 is void of the wording “footwear shall be polished”. No need for kiwi anymore.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I dunno. We should be expected to maintain the uniforms. If that means dry cleaning or what you pay in power and water home so be it. That's part of the job. Most places make you pay for uniforms. Think of the base tailor like public health care. It's free but its slow, going private will cost but it will be quicker.

100%, and the clothing upkeep allowance for stuff like dry cleaning was absorbed into our pay IIRC, years ago.

No sympathy for mbrs in ill fitting DEU tunic and pants - unless they can’t them in their size which has been a problem lately.

As for tailoring, those are local contracts set up by your BSup organization. Having a chat with them might get that changed for future contracts. I to think it's stupid that GOFOs get something for free that the peasantry has to pay for.

I won’t pay it, even if my shirt looks like a light blue mod tent section.

As far as I know any DEU item is up for tailoring in Halifax. Operational kit is a whole other ball of wax. I haven't seen an exclusivity for GOFOs.

I remember that being discussed here; might it be in the SAM somewhere?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Found this:

Post in thread 'Tailoring... time's up?'
Tailoring... time's up?

3-13K-012. Alterations and repairs - Distinctive Environmental Uniform (DEU)
31. Alterations to new clothing shall be completed at public expense for all ranks on initial issue and for replacement issue of authorized DEU items of clothing. Shirts cannot be altered at public expense. Exceptions can be authorized by the supply officer or clothing supervisor, including alterations to CF shirts. If an individual requires alterations beyond what is listed at para 35, they must provide substantiation in writing (email) to the Sup O or clothing supervisor. Alterations to CF shirts, although not restricted to this group, would normally be allowed for CF personnel holding senior appointments.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It must be something they learn in tailoring university. OPP uniforms (which as far as I know have no relationship with Logistik) are fitted so that there is several inches of material puddled around your feet. It's one thing on the general service (patrol) uniform to be a bit long since a lot of time is spent sitting, but another for the dress (long tunic) order.

I always felt the long tunic without a belt looks unfinished, but that's just what I'm used to. I still miss the Sam Browne with the long tunic.

People don't get a fitting before ordering. Even though that's available. In Halifax we have one of each size for you try on. And they are rotated out every so often.

But people just order a size they need and run with it. Instead of getting it and then going to the tailor shop for a final fitting.

100%, and the clothing upkeep allowance for stuff like dry cleaning was absorbed into our pay IIRC, years ago.

No sympathy for mbrs in ill fitting DEU tunic and pants - unless they can’t them in their size which has been a problem lately.



I won’t pay it, even if my shirt looks like a light blue mod tent section.



I remember that being discussed here; might it be in the SAM somewhere?

I have my work terminal at home I will look into it tm.

But they are local contracts. The stipulations of which are established by the Contracting Authority (CA).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Found this:

Post in thread 'Tailoring... time's up?'
Tailoring... time's up?

3-13K-012. Alterations and repairs - Distinctive Environmental Uniform (DEU)
31. Alterations to new clothing shall be completed at public expense for all ranks on initial issue and for replacement issue of authorized DEU items of clothing. Shirts cannot be altered at public expense. Exceptions can be authorized by the supply officer or clothing supervisor, including alterations to CF shirts. If an individual requires alterations beyond what is listed at para 35, they must provide substantiation in writing (email) to the Sup O or clothing supervisor. Alterations to CF shirts, although not restricted to this group, would normally be allowed for CF personnel holding senior appointments.

Welp there ya go. That doesn't seem right does it ?

I just read it too.

 

[ff149]

I was a firefighter posted to the ships for a time. Every time we did fit testing we'd have at least one person who would give some issue about beards or such. They would try to get us to fit test them with the beard, not understanding that we can't. It was against the RPP.

I've also had an officer try and tell me we couldn't refuse an order even when it blatantly broke every safety rule I'd ever heard of. One quick chat with the EO and that was the end of that. He was told in no uncertain terms that he couldn't order people to do what he wanted us to do.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I dunno. We should be expected to maintain the uniforms. If that means dry cleaning or what you pay in power and water home so be it. That's part of the job. Most places make you pay for uniforms. Think of the base tailor like public health care. It's free but its slow, going private will cost but it will be quicker.

As for tailoring, those are local contracts set up by your BSup organization. Having a chat with them might get that changed for future contracts. I to think it's stupid that GOFOs get something for free that the peasantry has to pay for.

As far as I know any DEU item is up for tailoring in Halifax. Operational kit is a whole other ball of wax. I haven't seen an exclusivity for GOFOs.

This is basically it, the CAF will give you the service, it will just suck. You can chose to use it or spend your own money to make your life a little better LOL.

I was a firefighter posted to the ships for a time. Every time we did fit testing we'd have at least one person who would give some issue about beards or such. They would try to get us to fit test them with the beard, not understanding that we can't. It was against the RPP.

I've also had an officer try and tell me we couldn't refuse an order even when it blatantly broke every safety rule I'd ever heard of. One quick chat with the EO and that was the end of that. He was told in no uncertain terms that he couldn't order people to do what he wanted us to do.

Did you explain to them what an illegal order was? LOL