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Then maybe CAF common training needs more training on the supply system and less on 18th century foot drill...
No more rifles on drill/grad parade?
- Thread starter Raymondacbot
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And nothing you have posited contradicts it or the theory behind drill. All I’ve seen here is « I don’t like it ». And « tradition is bad »
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Go back to to my first question. How much ceremonial drill is a Ukrainian conscript getting? I asked because I know the answer, having seen this training plan.
The fact that we were willing to toss ceremonial drill by the wayside when we considered the essential requirements to train Ukrainians who then went on to fight in Kherson a couple months later should indicate something about the relationship between drill, discipline, and combat effectiveness.
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One could argue a lot of things, be we aren't arguing those things... We are discussion the usefulness of ceremonial rifle drill on BMQ, specifically in an era where we are trying to cut fluff so we can get people through the training system more efficiently.
I can assure you, as someone that has deployed multiple times, my ability to perform a crisp present arms was never something I wished I'd spent more time honing. Proficiency with my rifle and pistol, very different story.
And if you read my posts you’ll see what I said about it. It’s a commentary on people stating we should do away with drill altogether. Rifle drill or no rifle drill doesn’t matter. Foot drill a gives the same aim. And it isn’treally about parades that you might have to do later. It’s a building block to move on to other building blocks to make a soldier out of a civilian.
And no says you have to. But how many clerks, supply techs, engineers etc etc go years without really needing their rifles? Same logic. So why have it on BMQ when it can be taught later?
You haven’t done drill in 10 years right? That kind of goes against what some people here are saying the CAF does all the time apparently…
You would have me at a loss as I have not been privy to their training plan. So I can’t comment.
There are also plenty of factors like « existential threat » that is a motivating factor for a variety of things. Something that does not exist here nor has it for a very long time.
If after this conflict we can toss a variety of things to streamline training to 5 weeks and achieve the same aim I have no reason to oppose that. We already have a 21 day (4 weeks) BMQ for the PRES that does not seem to impede them from moving on to their trade training.
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I haven't done rifle drill in a long time, I was in the RCN contingent for the national Remembrance Day parade this year.
I agree with you that drill serves a purpose, my argument has been that we should be looking at how much time we spend teaching it, and cut what isn't practical for the majority of CAF members. If some occupations need more drill, teach it as part of the occupation training, just like we do with weapons, fieldcraft, etc...
Right. And there are no rifles on that parade save for the sentries. So your baseline of basic drill was enough and maybe just needed some warm up drill or quick rehearsal. I believe it’s one rehearsal day at most. It would likely be much longer without a certain baseline.
No argument there. My argument has been from the onset against the elimination of all drill from BMQ or altogether as some people are positing. I can say that a lot of drill has been cut from reserve BMQs and limited to the basics. They can still turn out half decent parades with little work up.
As I said, you can limit the formal instructional part to basics and perfect it when moving to and from class, the mess, forming up for instructions etc throughout the course.
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If your occupation is so underemployed day to day that you have time to spend on the parade square practicing drill, then do so.
If you want your bins filled, clothing issued, bills paid, and pay administered properly, ten perhaps let those sailors, soldiers and aviators do their jobs and not worry about picture perfect parade square bashing on their part.
If you want your bins filled, clothing issued, bills paid, and pay administered properly, ten perhaps let those sailors, soldiers and aviators do their jobs and not worry about picture perfect parade square bashing on their part.
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So, now that there is violent agreement, someone can go through this and, looking at each drill movement, decide if it is "essential for basic training," "keep on the books if required," or "jettison as archaic."
www.canada.ca
I vote for @OldSolduer and @btrudy to head up the committee!
Drill and Ceremonial Manual - Canada.ca
The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial
I vote for @OldSolduer and @btrudy to head up the committee!
If you are being serious, drill on BMQ could easily be limited to attention, stand at ease/easy, marching, halting, saluting and turning at the halt. Adding basic rifle drill isn’t that hard after that given that order arms is gone.So, now that there is violent agreement, someone can go through this and, looking at each drill movement, decide if it is "essential for basic training," "keep on the books if required," or "jettison as archaic."
Drill and Ceremonial Manual - Canada.ca
The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial
I vote for @OldSolduer and @btrudy to head up the committee!
The other issue is the TP has time constraints for things. Like a 40 min period on marching that litteraly can take 5 mins to teach. Or a 40 min period on how to salute with a rifle that can take far less time to instruct.
Once taught, practice can easily be done when moving as a group place to place.
You could remove drill in its entirety from the leadership stream and follow what the Brits do with an all arms drill training wing that focuses on those that need it.
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I see no requirement for rifle drill on parade. If parading, you're already doing drill.
A long time ago, we had some Hereford fellows attached to us for an ex. They had no slings on their rifles. The rifles were always in their hands. They explained slings make you lazy and complacent. Lazy and complacent gets you and your mates killed.
Stop issuing slings to the troops.
A long time ago, we had some Hereford fellows attached to us for an ex. They had no slings on their rifles. The rifles were always in their hands. They explained slings make you lazy and complacent. Lazy and complacent gets you and your mates killed.
Stop issuing slings to the troops.
Agreed. Rifle or no rifle it achieves the same aim.
I would argue we should be issuing better slings than the garbage we have. Proper tactical slings and how to use them with our shooting drills.
Haggis
Army.ca Veteran
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Sounds like Duke's Company, 1RCR in the early '80s.
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SAS
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Rifle slings = laziness is even sillier than rifle drill = disciplined soldier. Thanks for the laugh today.
Find me one example where a sling got a soldier killed in Iraq or Afghanistan due to complacency.
MJP
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LOL I believed that sort of nonsense for like a weekend when I was in the Mo, right up until I had a task that needed both hands and carry my weapon.
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I'm simply repeating what I was told by people more eminently qualified in hunting and killing than either you or I could ever hope to be.
However, perhaps you're more informed than those Tier One operators on how to stay alive in hostile situations and what their training should be.
Now that's funny
Thanks for that laugh though
