No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[daftandbarmy]

I see no requirement for rifle drill on parade. If parading, you're already doing drill.

A long time ago, we had some Hereford fellows attached to us for an ex. They had no slings on their rifles. The rifles were always in their hands. They explained slings make you lazy and complacent. Lazy and complacent gets you and your mates killed.
Stop issuing slings to the troops.

That was our normal practise in the Parachute Regiment. They may have been ex-PARAs, which is common is 22 SAS.

It's a rifle and, when carried, should be ready to engage the enemy at all times. Other regiments have different opinions, of course.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm simply repeating what I was told by people more eminently qualified in hunting and killing than either you or I could ever hope to be.
However, perhaps you're more informed than those Tier One operators on how to stay alive in hostile situations and what their training should be.

 

[OldSolduer]

So, now that there is violent agreement, someone can go through this and, looking at each drill movement, decide if it is "essential for basic training," "keep on the books if required," or "jettison as archaic."

Drill and Ceremonial Manual - Canada.ca

The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial

www.canada.ca

I vote for @OldSolduer and @btrudy to head up the committee!

No thanks but for a consultation fee….

I will look at it though.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Puerile in extremo

 

[Brad Sallows]

Whether or not a sling makes sense might depend heavily upon the experience level of the soldier.

 

[ArmyRick]

So why should we eliminate drill in basic? I still haven't seen a valid reason for doing so.
Is bed making that important?
Is boot polishing really a part of your job?
Is forced marches necessary if your going to spend your career on ships?
Why bother teaching history of the CAF if people might forget it?
Hell, why bother with first aid training? Someone might forget it in two years.
Are uniforms really that useful?

At what point, do we stop the cultural destruction of the CAF?

And @Infanteer , did Ukranian soldiers that joined their military BEFORE Russia invade learn any drill? I bet they did. Yes, in ad hoc emergency you can skip things like drill but we are in that situation right now? No.

 

[ArmyRick]

Keep the damn sling. You gotta be a moron to not see its use.

 

[Booter]

I see no requirement for rifle drill on parade. If parading, you're already doing drill.

A long time ago, we had some Hereford fellows attached to us for an ex. They had no slings on their rifles. The rifles were always in their hands. They explained slings make you lazy and complacent. Lazy and complacent gets you and your mates killed.
Stop issuing slings to the troops.

You can quite literally find photos of the SAS using slings in all recent conflicts. I’ve also come across “slings make you lazy” in a training environment but it’s not a “rule”. In fact I know 3 PPCLI played around with this years ago when teaching certain courses. It wasn’t meant to be taken as a literal “forever no slings”

Daft- you NEVER used slings? That’s interesting.

 

[Infanteer]

Puerile in extremo

Sure mate. You're the one who came on with the categorical statement of fact that isn't backed by the experience of 20 years of war. You could have just asked "hey, do slings make soldiers complacent and lazy, I heard it once" to which the multitude of people here with experience in those wars would have responded with "no, actually, they allow a soldier to multi-task, and reduce fatigue on the soldier, therefore reducing complacency." Instead, you pulled a appeal to authority with some SAS guy you met decades ago. Is there anything else the guy from Hereford told you?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Go back to to my first question. How much ceremonial drill is a Ukrainian conscript getting? I asked because I know the answer, having seen this training plan.

The fact that we were willing to toss ceremonial drill by the wayside when we considered the essential requirements to train Ukrainians who then went on to fight in Kherson a couple months later should indicate something about the relationship between drill, discipline, and combat effectiveness.

How effective a soldier do you want to have? The Ukrainians are sending people to war with less training than what we sent people to Afghanistan with. It shows in many of the videos I have seen. It doesn’t mean that troop is as well trained as they could be and barely capable shouldn’t be our goal especially in peacetime when we are preparing for A war, not THE war.

 

[Infanteer]

How effective a soldier do you want to have? The Ukrainians are sending people to war with less training than what we sent people to Afghanistan with. It shows in many of the videos I have seen. It doesn’t mean that troop is as well trained as they could be and barely capable shouldn’t be our goal especially in peacetime when we are preparing for A war, not THE war.

...and would saluting with arms at the quick march improve the performance of those soldiers in the videos you watched?

 

[btrudy]

So why should we eliminate drill in basic? I still haven't seen a valid reason for doing so.
Is bed making that important?
Is boot polishing really a part of your job?

No, but those two are more directly tied to attention to detail, imposing discipline in daily routine, etc.

Is forced marches necessary if your going to spend your career on ships?

Probably not. Likewise for example, the land nav stuff while in the field during basic.

Why bother teaching history of the CAF if people might forget it?
Hell, why bother with first aid training? Someone might forget it in two years.

Now I'm fairly convinced that you're being disingenuous here. Please at least pretend to argue in good faith.

Are uniforms really that useful?

Yes, in general, although there are certainly specifics that aren't.

For example, the notion that all officers need to purchase their own mess dress is not useful, nor a reasonable imposition.

Also, the requirement to be wearing headdress at all times while outside, not all that useful.

At what point, do we stop the cultural destruction of the CAF?

What can I say my dude; what you view as destruction others may view as a marked improvement. The CAF as a whole made a whole-ass L1 organization devoted to culture change because it recognizes that there are some major aspects of CAF culture that are toxic and broken.

We stop when it's assessed that we've fixed things enough I suppose.

Tradition is not a good enough reason to keep doing something, in and of itself.

 

[Castus]

Is there anything else the guy from Hereford told you?

Something about the colour of the boat shed.

 

[ArmyRick]

No, but those two are more directly tied to attention to detail, imposing discipline in daily routine, etc.



Probably not. Likewise for example, the land nav stuff while in the field during basic.



Now I'm fairly convinced that you're being disingenuous here. Please at least pretend to argue in good faith.



Yes, in general, although there are certainly specifics that aren't.

For example, the notion that all officers need to purchase their own mess dress is not useful, nor a reasonable imposition.

Also, the requirement to be wearing headdress at all times while outside, not all that useful.



What can I say my dude; what you view as destruction others may view as a marked improvement. The CAF as a whole made a whole-ass L1 organization devoted to culture change because it recognizes that there are some major aspects of CAF culture that are toxic and broken.

We stop when it's assessed that we've fixed things enough I suppose.

Tradition is not a good enough reason to keep doing something, in and of itself.

Absolutely not one good reason have I seen from you for stopping drill. Not one. How many recruit courses have you instructed on? Myself, 1 reg f and 4 reserve BMQ. Enlighten us, all knowing one.

 

[Kat Stevens]

And if you read my posts you’ll see what I said about it. It’s a commentary on people stating we should do away with drill altogether. Rifle drill or no rifle drill doesn’t matter. Foot drill a gives the same aim. And it isn’treally about parades that you might have to do later. It’s a building block to move on to other building blocks to make a soldier out of a civilian.

And no says you have to. But how many clerks, supply techs, engineers etc etc go years without really needing their rifles? Same logic. So why have it on BMQ when it can be taught later?

You haven’t done drill in 10 years right? That kind of goes against what some people here are saying the CAF does all the time apparently…

This Engineer and all those like him never went too far without his rifle.

 

[ArmyRick]

No, but those two are more directly tied to attention to detail, imposing discipline in daily routine, etc.



Probably not. Likewise for example, the land nav stuff while in the field during basic.



Now I'm fairly convinced that you're being disingenuous here. Please at least pretend to argue in good faith.



Yes, in general, although there are certainly specifics that aren't.

For example, the notion that all officers need to purchase their own mess dress is not useful, nor a reasonable imposition.

Also, the requirement to be wearing headdress at all times while outside, not all that useful.



What can I say my dude; what you view as destruction others may view as a marked improvement. The CAF as a whole made a whole-ass L1 organization devoted to culture change because it recognizes that there are some major aspects of CAF culture that are toxic and broken.

We stop when it's assessed that we've fixed things enough I suppose.

Tradition is not a good enough reason to keep doing something, in and of itself.

When tradition and honouring the military past has zero negative impact on current operational capability, than do it.

Does trooping infantry colours do a damn useful current thing for an infantry battalion? Nope. However it maintains a strong link to the past and history of the regiment/army/CAF/etc.

I suppose you complain about Canadian flags being draped over a fallen soldier's coffin? Thats tradition.

Why do you serve, @btrudy ?

 

[Good2Golf]

Right, because militaries are typically open to change in the way they do things, and totally never continue doing things solely because it's a tradition.

Exactly! Long, coloured hair, often braided, has been part of Commonwealth and other historically long-lived military forces…

Go back to to my first question. How much ceremonial drill is a Ukrainian conscript getting? I asked because I know the answer, having seen this training plan.

The fact that we were willing to toss ceremonial drill by the wayside when we considered the essential requirements to train Ukrainians who then went on to fight in Kherson a couple months later should indicate something about the relationship between drill, discipline, and combat effectiveness.

If only Canada took creation of combat forces as seriously as it does drill & ceremonial…

 

[Haggis]

SAS

I knew who you meant. But the "no slings" thing was an "operational practice" of the aforementioned rifle company.

 

[btrudy]

Exactly! Long, coloured hair, often braided, has been part of Commonwealth and other historically long-lived military forces…
View attachment 77946

I mean, yeah, we kinda led the way on that front.

And I would like to remind everyone that it lead to months if not years of bitching on this forum, largely from the same people complaining in this thread about rifle drill. And, while we're at it, none of the grand predictions made about how those changes would negatively impact discipline, etc, have come to pass.

But the argument that I was responding to was that "if it was a good idea someone else would have done it". So pointing at what is frankly one of the few instances where Canada led the way in updating military culture to better suit current social norms isn't exactly supporting that argument. Instead it should be viewed as an example of "hey, we did this change and it's working out ok, let's keep at it".

When tradition and honouring the military past has zero negative impact on current operational capability, than do it.

Does trooping infantry colours do a damn useful current thing for an infantry battalion? Nope. However it maintains a strong link to the past and history of the regiment/army/CAF/etc.

I suppose you complain about Canadian flags being draped over a fallen soldier's coffin? Thats tradition.

No I do not. Some traditions are useful, and some are not. Things honouring the fallen are almost always worthwhile.

But as for the "zero negative impact", you seem to be completely discounting the opportunity cost. Whatever time is spent prepping for getting said infantry battalion ready for the trooping of the colors is time that could have instead been dedicated towards teaching operational skills. Or even just enjoying a bit more down-tempo time between urgent tasks and preventing burnout.

Not that I really buy the whole "drills maintains a link to the past and history of the regiment" aspect to be honest. You know what would? A history lesson. Actually learning what the people who came before you did, things they got right and the things they got wrong.

Why do you serve, @btrudy ?

Well I sure as shit don't serve because of tradition. Frankly, I don't get why people like you keep asking questions like this. Is a love for tradition and buttons and bows and marching up and down the parade square really the only reason you folks can think of to want to be in the military? You can't fathom people wanting to be in for reasons related to the actual operations we conduct? Or the compensation and benefits that we get in exchange for our labour?

I joined primarily because of a desire to have a job that had rock solid job stability where I could also feel useful and do my part in promoting global stability and Canada's interests. Now, well primary the pension golden handcuffs. The job stability part hasn't changed, and the feeling useful.... well that fluctuates depending on the circumstances, but is still mostly true. But whether or not I serve past the point where I'm eligible for the pension will depend greatly upon how competitive the CAF's overall compensation remains relative to whatever other opportunities. But at the end of the day I strongly suspect that the whole "won't get posted thing" will be a very strong deciding factor.

 

[Infanteer]

I joined primarily because of a desire to have a job that had rock solid job stability where I could also feel useful and do my part in promoting global stability and Canada's interests. Now, well primary the pension golden handcuffs. The job stability part hasn't changed, and the feeling useful.... well that fluctuates depending on the circumstances, but is still mostly true. But whether or not I serve past the point where I'm eligible for the pension will depend greatly upon how competitive the CAF's overall compensation remains relative to whatever other opportunities. But at the end of the day I strongly suspect that the whole "won't get posted thing" will be a very strong deciding factor.

I think you've described about 90% of the CAF....