No peace from war: Mother fights for soldiers suffering PTSD

[armyvern]

I feel for her son, but I haven't witnessed the "suck it up" attitude in quite the several numbers of years now. Exactly the opposite sentiments are the prevailing attitudes these days. What this soldier is experiencing is by far in the minority. (Article has been previously posted a few days ago -- and I'm thinking that there's discussion already occuring in that other thread on this).

Education is out there, so is the training, and so are the briefings. Mandatory attendance. Anyone displaying this attitude in this day and age is, quite simply, RTFO.

So, how about we deal seriously with those in leadership roles who continue to demonstrate the old dinosaur "suck it up" attitudes. They are very far and few between these days. They are not the standard and are the very very slim minority.

 

[GAP]

We all get flashbacks.....highly emotional moments will always come back to us ( think Sally, Saturday night, backseat of Ford, etc. etc.  ;D), and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's the dividing line between memories and stress that needs to be taught... (to this day the whop whop of helicopter blades will make me search for the sound source... not a bad thing, just a thing)

How that is accomplished is the real challenge.

My first suggestion would be, as others have suggested, get the "Suck it up, Buttercup" attitude out of there, then get the "Assessors" of PTSD to get a change in mindset, because the difficulties of describing what is happening by the soldiers in most cases are very difficult for them to put into the proper words that someone else can visualize what is happening to them. It would seem that is half the problem with being assessed as suffering from PTSD.....they can't get the message across.

 

[Jammer]

Unfortunately those attitudes are still very prevalant in some circles in the CF. In fact friends of mine who are undergoing treatment for PTSD have seen thier careers stalled, and removed from thier day to day duties and assigned to almost permanant duty NCO status.
I can tell you from my own experiences that the "suck it up" attitude is still very much alive. You can brief 'till your blue in the face, but as you walk out the door you will always hear a fair few mock the whole process, and not just the troops, the leadership as well.
However our strongest advocates are ourselves. Those of us who have seen and done those things we'll never forget, must take care care of our friends who can't yet make peace with our demons.

 

[armyvern]

Unfortunately those attitudes are still very prevalant in some circles in the CF. In fact friends of mine who are undergoing treatment for PTSD have seen thier careers stalled, and removed from thier day to day duties and assigned to almost permanant duty NCO status.
I can tell you from my own experiences that the "suck it up" attitude is still very much alive. You can brief 'till your blue in the face, but as you walk out the door you will always hear a fair few mock the whole process, and not just the troops, the leadership as well.
However our strongest advocates are ourselves. Those of us who have seen and done those things we'll never forget, must take care care of our friends who can't yet make peace with our demons.

Unfortunately, although those members injuries may not be visible -- they are there. These members are placed on medical categories as a result of such.  Unfortunately pers on med Cats have their careers stalled, are removed from courses, and sometimes get assigned desk jobs. This is not an issue confined to personnel with PTSD. It occurs daily accross the CF and is applicable to "guy with broken ankle from slipping on icy sidewalk" as well -- because the medical system has deemed it to be in the members best personal interests for proper recovery to be alleviated of some duties/courses/tasking etc. That's a call the medical world makes (and sometimes career shops) knowing the case history of the individual member.

As for the asshats that you hear making assinine comments/remarks ... what did you do about it?? Officially? That was exactly the point of my last post -- there is NO excuse for attitudes like this out there anymore -- and when those attitudes DO occur and one is witness to it, then one should handle it, officially, seriously, and ensure that they report this crap and have the assholes dealt with.

 

[Jammer]

I did take the time to relate my own experience's to my troops after out last briefing. With any luck at all what I passed on to them made a difference.
Not everyone who has PTSD or exhibits symptoms are on T-Cat. In fact those on T-Cat STILL get promoted and posted to where they want to go. Thus causing others to deploy for their 3rd or 4th time. Nice.
If you can imagine someone in a Bde unit at my rank level standing up to a particularly high ranking NCM and drafting a memo through the CoC stating that I found that persons remarks morally and ethically wrong, then you have never served in a Bde. The sub-culture there doesn't allow for it, and doesn't tolorate it. Does it make it right? No! But it is just the reality.
It's not all roses and sunshine out there Vern.

 

[George Wallace]

Jammer

Therein lies the problem.  Often it is at a higher level, in the lower Commands, where the problem lies.  The very top in Ottawa is sympathetic to the problems of the Troops.  The very bottom, having experienced the problems first hand, are sympathetic to their problems.  It is the Senior Leadership at some of the Tactical and Operational Levels here at home, who may never have deployed, nor experienced the stresses of deployment that others have, that are still causing the grief.  "The Middle Managers of the Senior Leadership" so to say; not the Leadership at the lower levels and not the Leadership at the Strategic/National/Policy levels.

 

[Armymedic]

I call BS on statement that the military at the present time having a "Suck It Up" attitude specifically in regards to mental illness/PTSD. Perhaps this opinion is jaded as to where I work, but I still feel that statement is truely not the case. If there wasn't 3-5 times where a soldiers could address problems post tour, if they didn't have procedures for people who step forth with problems, if we didn't have peer and leadership programs for soldiers who are and have been on tour, and everything else in place, I could see thier line of thinking.

If there is such an attitude permeating throughout the military, it is not to the indifference to mental illness, but in response to the fact we are being run hard and put away wet due to a tempo that demands all able body soldiers to do thier job.

 

[armyvern]

I did take the time to relate my own experience's to my troops after out last briefing. With any luck at all what I passed on to them made a difference.
Not everyone who has PTSD or exhibits symptoms are on T-Cat. In fact those on T-Cat STILL get promoted and posted to where they want to go. Thus causing others to deploy for their 3rd or 4th time. Nice.
If you can imagine someone in a Bde unit at my rank level standing up to a particularly high ranking NCM and drafting a memo through the CoC stating that I found that persons remarks morally and ethically wrong, then you have never served in a Bde. The sub-culture there doesn't allow for it, and doesn't tolorate it. Does it make it right? No! But it is just the reality.
It's not all roses and sunshine out there Vern.

I say again:

What did YOU do officially to have those "thorns" dealt with? Until people who experience this "attitude" report & deal with those "thorns" officially -- those thorns have zero impetus to change because they are of the dinosaur mentality of which there is NO excuse for these days.

I'm no roses & sunshine girl, of that I can assure you.

DO something official about it --- especially if it's as commonplace as you claim within your current Unit.

People on Med Cats CAN get promoted ... if the MO signs off on them as being in a medical state which would be accepting of their condition and would not detract from the member's personal recovery. That's a call made by MOs because they know each INDIVIDUALs case history and based on a case by case basis. -- as I said in the last post. THAT has ZERO to do with "suck it up attitudes displayed to those with PTSD" however. Everyone on a medical is treated in the exact same manner as this when it comes to Cats, promotions, and postings.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I did take the time to relate my own experience's to my troops after out last briefing. With any luck at all what I passed on to them made a difference.
Not everyone who has PTSD or exhibits symptoms are on T-Cat. In fact those on T-Cat STILL get promoted and posted to where they want to go. Thus causing others to deploy for their 3rd or 4th time. Nice.
If you can imagine someone in a Bde unit at my rank level standing up to a particularly high ranking NCM and drafting a memo through the CoC stating that I found that persons remarks morally and ethically wrong, then you have never served in a Bde. The sub-culture there doesn't allow for it, and doesn't tolorate it. Does it make it right? No! But it is just the reality.
It's not all roses and sunshine out there Vern.

I hate to say it; but some times it seems as though some people won't understand until they have to deal with it directly...  I've come across this attitude a few times; the "suck it up" sentiments.  A lot of time its not said, it's just the look, or the feeling of a person of senior leadership that says it all. 
But like the old saying goes; sometimes you can't judge a person until you walk a mile in their shoes...  There are days when I get that feeling from some one, and the look and I want to say; "You suck it up... you wake up 3 times a night, sweating, shaking, sometimes in tears after dreams of battle and those whose bodies you carried... you can suck up the bad days when everything hurts and all you want to do is get away from people.  And you're welcome to experience constant anger and rage over nothing, that interferes with every aspect of your life all the time and make you want to just destroy everything around you...and your wife/family sometimes feels afraid to be around you.  Suck that up."
As much as we don't want that attitude around, and as much as it is being fought and educated out of our system, there will always be those who don't, and will never understand. 

There is help out there for those of us who have been injured like this, and it's not these services that are the problem... it's everything road-blocking these services that's the issue; the "suck it up" attitude from leadership is one issue, but remember, this also comes from peers as well.    I had a good buddy come to my office the other week and tell me how he's having serious problems since coming back; alcoholism, anger issues, etc... and they were affecting every aspect of his life.  He didn't know where to go or who to talk to... he asked at his home unit and got the "suck it up" from his CoC and his peers...  So he came to me..  and I pointed him to the OSI clinic and OSISS.  He's doing better, but he hasn't told his CoC that he's seeking help yet. He's had to do it on his own.  Keep in mind, this is the reserve world, where we haven't dealt with large scale OSIs from deployment (yet), and people just don't understand.

As Jammer put it;  "It's not all roses and sunshine out there"    It may seem like it, but until you're in the system, dealing with the same issues, it's not easy to see.  It's easy to say "just pass it up the CoC and lodge an official complaint", but in this social circle with this "suck it up" stigma, you then seem like a whiny broken soldier.  Granted, it will legally and legitimately solve the problem, but you will end up ostracizing yourself, and in most cases, with the people who can directly affect your career. 

I may seem a little touchy on this subject (along with 48th regulator) but I think we have good cause... until someone goes through the hell that is the OSI help system, they just can't understand...  In my mind, its the same as anyone on these forums, who are not MOs, commenting on specific medical conditions of a specific applicants for the medical process of recruiting... The necessary information isn't available 'cause you haven't gone through it.

Perhaps I'm a little bitter, but when you go through a very stressful process to try to get help for the repercussions of a very stressful situation, it's like fighting fire with gasoline...

 

 

[Jammer]

Concur 100%
Vern, Unless you've been though the system it's easy to stand on the outside and pontificate that the process is  that cut and dry.
BTW, I have, and it's been ME who's risen above the fray. NOT through any help of the OSI system.

 

[armyvern]

Concur 100%
Vern, Unless you've been though the system it's easy to stand on the outside and pontificate that the process is  that cut and dry.
BTW, I have, and it's been ME who's risen above the fray. NOT through any help of the OSI system.

I did not say the process was cut and dry. Point it out to me.

And, be very careful what you presume to know about me and my presumedly lack of dealings with the system wrt to PTSD -- you'd look very silly in the end.

And, btw, if YOU want 3 RCR to rise above this ... then YOU should start actioning those thorns with YOU. Do something about this supposed "standard attitude" that YOU say exists there. Correcting errors starts with the people who recognize them -- and do something to effect change.

 

[Jammer]

You insinuate that all is right with the med process.
I don't presume to know anything about you, neither should you about me. My remarks were in general and not specific to any particular unit. Just my observations over the years.
As for looking silly...It must be nice to gaze over the great unwashed.

 

[Strike]

Jammer,

Not to get you into a more agittated state than you already are, but Vern brings up a good point.  If somewhere along the CoC, someone pulls attitude because of what you have to deal with, the go sideways and then up.  Have SOMEONE deal with it.  PLEASE.  Okay, there may be career implications.  But what happens when someone else needs help and keeps smashing in to that same brick wall?  How would you feel, knowing you could have done something to keep it from happening again and you didn't?  Yes, I know it's hard, and can add a greater stigma on you than you may already have.  And you may be dealing with things that are hard enough that you really don't want to stir up a whole different hornet's nest.  But, personally, I would consider it my duty to deal with a situation like this.

My experience?  Done it several times.  The ourcome?  Sure, it may have affected my career somewhat, but for every person that I've pissed off by doing the "right" thing, I've got 3 others who have backed me up 100%.  It's a simple matter of not passing a fault (yes, easier said than done, but nothing worth it ever comes easy).

 

[armyvern]

You insinuate that all is right with the med process.
I don't presume to know anything about you, neither should you about me. My remarks were in general and not specific to any particular unit. Just my observations over the years.
As for looking silly...It must be nice to gaze over the great unwashed.

That med process is determined by MOs ... on a case per case basis as to what is best for that INDIVIDUALS recovery. They are the professionals. They know the case history.

You are insinuating that only PTSD suffering pers are affected by this above statement of mine, but that is entirely NOT true. Every person on a Med Cat, whether it be PTSD, broken ankle, whatever -- is subject to the same thing WRT career progression and promotion etc. The EXPERT (ie the medical professional) decides based upon EACH individual case. That's NOT a "suck it up attitude" --- it's a medical decision, made by the medical expert after reviewing your file, and rendering a decision based upon what is best for YOU and your recovery.

Gazing over the great unwashed. Give your head a shake -- you've had mail for at least 20 minutes now, which no doubt, you have also read that points out your erroneous labelling of me. Rather than being outside the process and "pontificating" as you stated -- I am indeed "IN" that mental healthcare system (and NOT as staff) as I give you greater detail of in that PM before you posted this latest bit. Judge me not based on your perceptions -- isn't that exactly what you are bitching about people doing to YOU in this thread? Or is it because you are making the incorrect presumtions that it is OK?  :

 

[Jammer]

Strike,
The only thing agitating around here is my washer

Vern,
PM inbound

 

[Jammer]

So there you have it.
Two views from the front end and the back end...(no pun intended).
Diametrically opposed but seeking the same end result. A fair and impartial solution.

 

[Yrys]

Two views from the front end and the back end...(no pun intended).

Is this in the right thread ?

What are you refering to ?

 

[Jammer]

The verbal thrust and parry between vern and I.

 

[Strike]

So there you have it.
Two views from the front end and the back end...(no pun intended).

Okay, I have to ask...who is which?

(Yes, a little humour in a very serious thread, but I think everyone needed it.)

 

[Jammer]

I suppose it would depend on whose POV you agree with ;D