Non-Issue Kit

[RCA]

Somehow Black6 you seem to do all, know all. However some of us on this board have other opinions, whether you like them or not.

This thread has got further then it should have or, I would have thought. However, I do believe in “ anyone can be uncomfortable.” If you want to wear pink pantyhose underwear under your combat, so be it. However the outerwear (ie uniform, webbing, helmet etc) was issued you for a reason. To use. For you P Res out there, you do not own your kit, so consider it rented.

For the ones just joining up. Learn to use to stuff you have first, before you decide you have to modify it , or need something else. “One man, One kit” does mean something to those of us whom have been around.

No one will ever argue whether you wear an extra canteen, or your mag pouches on one side. But on trg in Canada, limitations will be set. It comes done to doing as you are told. Don’t like, get out. The CSM, SSM, BSM, & RSM will always have that prerogative.

My concern is that this thread is showing new soldiers misconceptions before they actually know where their *** is from a hole in the ground. It is our responsibility to show them.

Black6 - Whether you care what I say or not, I will say it because I care.

G17 to Black6 over.

 

[Korus]

Still being in the recruiting phase, I was wondering.. What do reservists (Infantry) get issued? You say we get what we need, so what do we need? (If anything for some reason is sensitive info, don‘t bother saying it here, though I‘m sure all of you already know that)

(No, I‘m not looking to buy anything extra and ‘cool‘)

 

[enfield]

The list of kit you‘ll get is very, very long.... Some of it you will probably never use.
It‘s all pretty-much common sense - rucksack, webbing, uniforms, boots, socks, jacket, fleece, long underwear, plus much, much more.

No one‘s going to say anything if you wear hiking socks instead of the issue ones - just make sure it‘s a dark color or grey. No white or pink!! The most common non-issue pice of kit is probably an old-style tubular frame ruck (if you find done at a surplus store, BUY IT!! Most surplus stores, if they get one, send them off to Edmonton or Pet, where the big market is)

 

[Sapper Bloggins]

The " REMF‘S" GET FIRST DIBS ON ALL THE NEWEST KIT THEN WE‘RE LEFT W/ ALL THE IRREGULAR SIZES. tHIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR FAR TOO LONG :evil: :fifty:

 

[BillP]

It is rather interesting to see on the DND site "image section", newpaper pix, and on the T.V. the various items of kit being worn by the CDN troops in Afghanistan! I have seen troops wearing 82 pattern webbing, Bosnia vests, some with the new LBV, and others wearing "highspeed" chestrigs. The combination of various/differing load carriage seems to indicate the fact of "using what works for you!", moreso than adhering to a concept of uniformity. Any comments on this?

 

[Paul Gagnon]

Originally posted by Schwerpunkt:
[qb]

And yes a "big Rambo knife" is dumb if only in that it is not ideal for fighting. Every soldier should have a good fighting knife with them, and the bayonet ain‘t it. I will even concede that you will likely never use it in your career, but it fulfills 3 important roles just by being there
1. It confirms, in the most intimate terms, your status as a warrior, and reminds you that you job is the destruction of the EN
2. It encourages a warrior mentality by confirming that you are willing and able to literally close with and destroy the enemy, even nose to nose
3. It may one day be necessary, and ya don‘t have to feed it.[/qb]

I thought that a big rambo knife meant you watched too many movies. If you can get away with carrying the whole surplus store on your webbing and you like clanging like tin cans dragging behind someones car after a wedding then go nuts. I always prefered to travel light.

 

[portcullisguy]

A knife is a tool. Big, small, serrated, Rambo-like, doesn‘t matter.

If you wave one at me I will **** myself and do whatever you want.

If I have my own to wave back I expect both of us will come away worse for wear.

When I was a cadet, I wanted to "look cool" like all the other cadets on EX and sure enough, you end up carrying a lot of crap you never use or need.

At my current job (customs officer, some may recall), I see other officers carrying all sorts of nonsense on their belts they never use or that jsut wiegh them down.

Now, I am very task-oriented -- I ask myself this important question before making most decisions at work: "Do I need this? Will this assist me or burden me?" If it has no clear use, it gets binned.

Everything I carry on belt-kit I use almost daily. Anything else I need occasionally goes in my briefcase, and I‘ll rummage for it when I need it.

 

[gun plumber]

In regards to non-issue(kitshop) kit?We all understand that you can't waltz around in another countries uniform on ex but with all the options of "snivel kit" that exists out there,where do you draw the line?
I was talking to one of the local reserve guys today and the topic of kit came up.He was miffed because his section commander would not allow him to use his peacekeeper modular rucksack on exercise. I mentioned to him that there was a standard,expecially on course,that had to be maintained and at least for the time being,he'd probably be better off leaving that piece of kit in his locker.
To this he replied that he and his section mates use other items of non-issue orign like hyration packs,day bags,pouches and the such and get no grief about it, and were even   encouraged to support the base kitshop by buying these things from them.Why wernt they allowed to use these items if they were encourged to buy them by his section comdr. He also challenged that if there was a standard on course,why did his instructors use the 64 pattern frame and the kitshop 64 pattern bag while everyone else had to use the issued ruck?
I did'nt comment on this and left the conversation thinking"He's got a point there..".
I myself am an advocate of non-issue kit,but not when said kit gets foolish(the gypsy caravan look,or when you need your own truck to haul it around for you)and am wondering what everyone else thinks on this topic.
What do you think is overboard and draw the line at?Any examples?What is an absolute no-no?
Just courious.


modified for grammer

 

[robmika]

Good questions...  Its a line I walk at the unit myself... as a snr NCO...

First lets get this out of the way... of course what the CO or RSM says is what goes.

Enough said..

So whats the line... I think it can be drawn fairly well.. still a little grey, but lets all be adults here.

I have jacked up my troops to had the gall to show up wearing woodland camo rigs and pouches... obviously that is too "conspicuous" for us non-yanks.

and I have jacked up my troops before for using kit that maybe olive drab, but it was cheap polyester (read plastic-y) made in korea.

So... when dont I jack them... to me it has to fit in, either olive or cadpat, and it has to be of a quality that will last in field conditions (ie. 1000d cordura, nylon thread, taped seams, etc).. as a rule you can look to some of the more reputable gear producers such as eagle, tactical tailor, tiger tactical, peacekeeper, etc, and say that if it is in CADPAT or olive it is good to go.

yah yah yah.. i know that there are puritans out there that feel that "everyone must wear canadian issue" , "canadian gear is some of the best in the world", "you cannot recognize if they are canadian if they are not wearing 100% CDN gear"... and so on and so on and so on... one.. get out to the field a bit and actually RUCK THE BOONIES,,,  PUT IN A COUPLE RAIDS>>> DO A FEW OPs>>> and so on... (all within a week with minimal resup. you will see how "good" our gear is... it maybe not the "worst" on the planet.. but it IS 84 pattern... do the math.. that is the ergonomics, technology, and creativity of TWENTY years ago... we HAVE come a littel ways since then.

And if a troop WANTS to spend a few buck to make his job a little more comfortable oreasier, then he becomes MORE EFFECTIVE....

So to me it is the color (to remain within the "politics" of the CF) and the quality of gear.

ROB

 

[Britney Spears]

Doesn't answer your question directly, but I think it's a good point.

I direct your attention to the attached pictures that I found on another forum, they are from a "Robin Sage" excercise, which is the final phase/ FTX of the qualification course for the US Army SF.

How much gucci kit do you see there? Very little, heck, that American webbing looks downright painful to wear. Yet the vast majority of our infantry soldiers will probably never experience training on the same level and intensity.

One of the rifle wizards here (I think it may have been KevinB) once made a comment that the C-7 will outperform the majority of the troops who use it. I think this also holds true for most other issued kit. For the vast majority of troops no on operations, you don't need any gucci kit to be an effective and competent soldier, and your efforts are better directed at improving individual soldier skills.

 

[gun plumber]

Good points for both sides.
Since I already admitted to being a gear slut,I'll try my best to remain impartial and carry on a proper conversation.
Your statement referance"you dont need gucci kit to be effective...."is a sore point with me.Yes,you are right,most of the issued kit is all you require to do your job,after all the Army even gives you 5 days worth of drawers!But where the sore part hits is,even not on operations,you still have to be dry,warm and comfortable to be at your best.Granted,the risk in CFB Anywhere during ex is pretty low,but morale in the field is what makes you enjoy your job and get the most out of your training.
If you can,by spending a little money,make your field experiences more enjoyable,and hence,more "user friendly" rather than saying"I can't wait till End ex!" than is'nt that the overall goal?
Your point about the US special forces is true.Those guys are as hard as Christmas candy,but I garantee
they got some of thier snivel kit with them,no matter how small.
Thank you so far for the interesting points...

 

[gun plumber]

I dug this up to illustrate what I think is alittle overboard.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/18144.0.html

 

[D-n-A]

In regards to being on course, for the most part(mainly with recruit courses) the instructers want the recruits to be the same, and use the same kit so nobody is different etc. And thet get to learn the kit that they've just been issued.


As for the US SF troops, yes on course they wear the old LC-1 ALICE gear, but once they get to a SFG they get more gucci kit. Look at pictures of them in Iraq and Afghanistan, haven't seen any of them using ALICE gear, alot of them have some gucci looking LBVs an chest rigs, plus wearing "native" clothing, as it helps them do their job an blend in.

Usuaully, atleast from what I've seen, the US Army is more strict on non-issue kit than we are, for its "normal" troops atleast.

 

[KevinB]

I'd really like to know the date of that photo from the Q course.  But they do intentional get beasted on that course and what better way to do it than with the webbing (non of which is SF issue even for support pers).  

Secondly course are just that courses - I woudl not expect to use my Kifaru EMR (love it BTW) on any sort of leadership course as the idea is to set a standard and keep a grip of those details - with seperate kit it is hard to do.

Other than that.  I can send you some pics from ODA's deployed and they don't look nothing like they did in the Pineland pic.

 

[D-n-A]

Kevin, the dates for the pictures are on the bottem right corner of each photo.

 

[KevinB]

:-[  my bad - forest/trees whoops.

I am guessing (and I will confirm with a buddy in Bragg) that the kit is owned by the school and issued to candidates (like rucks at CABC)

 

[Long in the tooth]

Seeing as Rememerbrance is just past us, I wonder what our predecesors would think of all our 'snivel' kit gortex and polar fleece?  I was always amazed tjem we went to the US how much money we would spend on kit...  specifically, the us sleepshirt is very close in design to our pull over, yet had to be re-designed to meet our standards.  Sometimes I think the CF overengineers things.

 

[McG]

He also challenged that if there was a standard on course,why did his instructors use the 64 pattern frame and the kitshop 64 pattern bag while everyone else had to use the issued ruck?

If a standard is being enforced and the enforcers are themselves breaking with that standard, then I would not draw up the conclusion that the standard is invalid.  I would conclude a leadership/professionalism failure in those charged with keeping the standard (regardless of how well it is enforced on those below them).

Day packs & hydration systems are not universally available to Canadian soldiers.  If kit does not exist, then there should be scope for guys to get their own.  The rucksack is universally available.  If your rucksac is damaged in the course of training, then the CF is prepaired to replace it.  The CF has no interest in replacing the pack you bough in the kit shop or at MEC for whatever amount you were prepared to spend at that time.

 

[pbi]

Seeing as Rememerbrance is just past us, I wonder what our predecesors would think of all our 'snivel' kit gortex and polar fleece?  I was always amazed tjem we went to the US how much money we would spend on kit...  specifically, the us sleepshirt is very close in design to our pull over, yet had to be re-designed to meet our standards.  Sometimes I think the CF overengineers things.

Canadian soldiers have always been well known for picking up bits of kit they like, so I imagine our predecessors probably latched on to whatever they could get away with. We are far better paid than any of our forefathers, so we can buy the stuff that catches our eye when they might not have been able to spare the coin.

As for "over-engineering": I remember only too well the absolutely shyte standard of  most of our kit over the last 30 years. Most of it was rubbish. We are miles ahead now (I get a new piece of kit thrown at me every time I go near Camp Julien), including of the kit that MOST US types probably have, although they are getting better. The answer IMHO is to expand the scale of issue and see to it that we all have the good kit. The cost would probably be equivalent to the personal expense accounts of any two Cabinet Ministers for a year. Cheers.

 

[Britney Spears]

AoS, KevinB:

<a href=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15816&highlight=robin+sage>Here's</a> the original thread on militaryphotos.net.

Quote from poster:

actually in sage, you could bring out any gear u wanted during the excersise (the only time in the Q course they give you that option actually)... so two of our guys did have chest rigs (racks also known as) .... but for the most part, you can complete mission without the fancy stuff, why bother getting your personel stuff messed up for simply a training mission.

when we get to teams they issue us a truck load of the really nice stuff so we hear

My thoughts exactly. The only pieces of non-issued "military" kit I've ever bought are my $10 volleyball kneepads (I don't play volleyball).
 
Most troops, myself included, go through a phase after battle school where we are convinced that the issued kit is the source of all our troubles (and not the fact that we're just young and dumb), and that we can all become JTF candidates if we just buy the right aftermarket parts. Well, good thing for my wallet that I never acted on my instinct.
Training excercises are times to hone  individual soldiering and leadership skills, not fashion shows.  Wearing a $300 chest rig on a weekend excercise to do 3 section attacks is just silly.  Remeber our friend "tacsit"? I couldn't believe how many serious reply posts it took before someone finally called him out. I thought he was a clown after reading his second post.