November 2015: Paris Bataclan attack/hostage taking

[a_majoor]

Is this an apples to apples comparison?  Hitler was the leader of the Nazi party...at the end of the war he was dead, his party gone and his army utterly destroyed.  The "faithful" of the Hitler Youth had nothing left to motivate them with every symbol of what they followed gone.  Can you do the same with a religious movement?  You can't "kill" the Prophet.  You can't "erase" a major world-wide religion.  You can't utterly destroy all the faithful. 

Unlike the Nazis, the symbols of radical Islam are not worldly symbols.  As ER Campbell has suggested, only by changing the faith itself through a "reformation" can this movement truly be defeated.

Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.

Many secular ideologies have the characteristics of religions, and often times the way secular ideologies and religions are erased works out to be the same: utterly destroy and discredit the leadership, institutions and teachings, so anyone looking to follow this ideology sees that it only leads to ruin and marginalization, not power and success. Since most people prefer to follow paths that lead to power and success, these ideologies wither and fade away (unless some special circumstances arise: see the rebirth of National Socialism in Europe coinciding with expanding power of the EUrocrats, loss of national sovereignty, increasing immigration and gaining strength with the financial crisis and international terrorism of the more recent past).

 

[Tuan]

So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.

How ISIS benefits from anti-refugee sentiment
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/paris-attacks-why-keystone-was-a-powerful-symbol-and-robot-doctors-1.3316988/how-isis-benefits-from-anti-refugee-sentiment-1.3319618


"When ISIS launches attacks like the one we've just seen in Paris, what are they trying to accomplish?

I think what ISIS wants to do is provoke a right-wing backlash against refugees and immigrant communities that come from Islamic countries, because that conflict gives credence to their world view that there is a war between the West and Islam. This Islamophobic backlash that we see happening is exactly what they want. They think that this will on the one hand, drive Europeans towards that right-wing point, and on the other hand, drive those communities towards them.

How would that work? How would a public backlash against refugees and Muslim communities in Europe affect the ability of ISIS to recruit people and gain public support?

ISIS believes they've set up this Islamic utopia, but all these Muslims are fleeing that Islamic utopia -- so that's kind of embarrassing to them. So they think that by provoking this kind of backlash, maybe it will lead people to sympathize with them more. Because then these people that are being welcomed in Europe will think, well, actually maybe we're not being welcomed in Europe. Maybe ISIS' world view is right, that there is this fundamental difference between our world and the West.

It's been getting most of the coverage, but Paris was not the only target of a terrorist attack this past week. Forty-three people were killed in Beirut on Thursday, and ISIS is claiming responsibility for that as well. What do you think ISIS was trying to accomplish with the Beirut attack?

I actually spent a lot of my childhood in Beirut, so this issue is really close to my heart. I think that, basically, ISIS are operating under a similar logic everywhere, but in Beirut the circumstances are a bit different. You have about a million Syrian refugees in Beirut, and things are tense, but there is some kind of coexistence happening. What ISIS wants is to provoke Lebanese civilians...the sectarian warfare in Beirut is also in their interest and furthers their narrative, similar to what happened in Paris.

These attacks are operating under the same kind of logic and they're killing civilians in order to provoke backlash. They're killing civilians in order for communities to start fighting each other... We need to start seeing these as the same. ISIS is operating under the same logic everywhere, and we need solidarity with all of its victims, not some more than others."

 

[opcougar]

It was only a matter of time.....here we go

A mosque in Peterborough, Canada, was deliberately set on fire this weekend, police said Sunday. While the blaze was quickly contained and no one was injured, the Peterborough Examiner reports, the building, which suffered an estimate $80,000 of damage, is now unusable.

http://gawker.com/police-canada-mosque-deliberately-set-ablaze-1742683260

 

[George Wallace]

So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.

It is not "Racist paranoia".  First off, Islam is not a race, so forget that.  Second: using the word "Racist" to defend your position really is not a defence.  Forcing Muslims to flee in front of them, IS is indeed creating an Islamic migration.  If you don't believe that, ..... Well, words can not describe my thoughts on that.  Do those Muslims fleeing IS rule mean that IS is spreading its influence into Europe and other regions?  Not necessarily at this moment, anyway.  Is it within the realm of a threat that Islam is going to dominate and become the only religion in the world?  Perhaps.  Overwhelming another population with yours and then through procreation becoming the dominate culture in that population, is an invasion.  Not a violent war, but a slow evolution to overwhelm a previous culture.  As Thucydides just stated in the previous post, you can erase a religion quite easily.  As he says, history has borne that out.  Whole religions have disappeared or been forced out of regions.  Whole cultures have similarly been erased.  If you refuse to accept that this is just such a possibility, you are not accepting the facts as they are transpiring in Europe today.

 

[George Wallace]

It was only a matter of time.....here we go


http://gawker.com/police-canada-mosque-deliberately-set-ablaze-1742683260

There are idiots everywhere.  Similarly, panic causing a mad stampede happened in Paris today when some fool set off firecrackers near a vigil for the slain.  People panicked at the sound, and Police deployed.   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319494/United-face-fear-Thousands-turn-Paris-lay-floral-tributes-pay-respects-victims-terror-attacks-country-comes-terms-deadliest-attack-Europe-decade.html

 

[Kilo_302]

It is not "Racist paranoia".  First off, Islam is not a race, so forget that.  Second: using the word "Racist" to defend your position really is not a defence.  Forcing Muslims to flee in front of them, IS is indeed creating an Islamic migration.  If you don't believe that, ..... Well, words can not describe my thoughts on that.  Do those Muslims fleeing IS rule mean that IS is spreading its influence into Europe and other regions?  Not necessarily at this moment, anyway.  Is it within the realm of a threat that Islam is going to dominate and become the only religion in the world?  Perhaps.  Overwhelming another population with yours and then through procreation becoming the dominate culture in that population, is an invasion.  Not a violent war, but a slow evolution to overwhelm a previous culture.  As Thucydides just stated in the previous post, you can erase a religion quite easily.  As he says, history has borne that out.  Whole religions have disappeared or been forced out of regions.  Whole cultures have similarly been erased.  If you refuse to accept that this is just such a possibility, you are not accepting the facts as they are transpiring in Europe today.

Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.

 

[dimsum]

Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.

To be pedantic, Islam is not a race - it is a religion. 

There are Arab Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, African Muslims in many countries, etc.  They are not all of the same race (unless you mean the human race, then there's no point splitting hairs). 

 

[George Wallace]

Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.

You throw the word "Racist" around quite freely.  Don't you have a larger vocabulary and perhaps a better defence of you point of view other than to call people "Racist"?  That quite frankly makes you look like a fool.

As for accusing people of suggesting that there is a "more sinister plan" afoot, perhaps you should really read what you are commenting on.  People are pointing out the large numbers of a population that subscribe to a certain religion migrating into the lands of another completely different society.  Such a migration, as pointed out now several times, does have an affect on the population that it is overwhelming.  Are you really going to ignore that fact?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.

Great post. 

It's hard not to feel like the world would be a better place without Islam.

 

[Kilo_302]

I am aware that Islam is not a race, and that there are Muslims around the world. This actually proves my point about what Tomahawk and George are saying. There are Muslim nations that have female leaders for example. This is not a homogeneous group by any stretch, and yet they are portrayed as such.

You throw the word "Racist" around quite freely.  Don't you have a larger vocabulary and perhaps a better defence of you point of view other than to call people "Racist"?  That quite frankly makes you look like a fool.

As for accusing people of suggesting that there is a "more sinister plan" afoot, perhaps you should really read what you are commenting on.  People are pointing out the large numbers of a population that subscribe to a certain religion migrating into the lands of another completely different society.  Such a migration, as pointed out now several times, does have an affect on the population that it is overwhelming.  Are you really going to ignore that fact?

Of course increased immigration will change demographics, what's your point? It's a bit precious that Europe who sent immigrants around the world where they were most certainly not welcome (the whole imperial thing), is now in a panic at refugees fleeing a conflict that much of Europe is actively or indirectly involved in. Anyone bombing Syria has a responsibility to deal with the refugees leaving, it's that simple. Anyone who is or has provided weaponry, ditto.

Why are Syrian refugees fleeing Syria?

#1, ISIS: A group one of our closest allies in the region armed and trained with our complicity as a bulwark against our bigger enemy, Iran. We had a hand in the creation of ISIS. We also created conditions in which they would thrive by creating a vacuum in Iraq and Libya.

#2, War: War is destructive. Our bombs are destroying infrastructure to deprive ISIS but it has the same effect on people living in those areas. Our refusal to engage with Assad/Russia/IRan also means ISIS has been able to advance more than it otherwise would have. No one wants their family to live in an active war zone, so they're fleeing to Europe.

We the West have a large hand in the drivers forcing these people out. If we don't do what we can to help those that are merely trying to ensure their families survival, we're not much better than the Russians. Or the Syrian government for that matter.

 

[a_majoor]

George, I think you need to play this card:

 

[Tuan]

George, I think you need to play this card:

Perhaps instead of  saying "racist" Kilo should have said "xenophobic" but he/she has a point  :2c:

 

[jollyjacktar]

France reaches out and dick punches these assholes.  Keep hitting Raqqa. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319696/French-fighter-jets-carry-massive-airstrike-operation-ISIS-stronghold-city-Raqqa-Syria.html

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps instead of  saying "racist" Kilo should have said "xenophobic" but he/she has a point  :2c:

As does tomahawk6.

 

[opcougar]

You left out Russian, Bosnian and North American Muslims i.e. people born and bred in these countries and practice Islam. You are right about religion NOT being a race, and it's amazing to see some people refer to it as that.

To be pedantic, Islam is not a race - it is a religion. 

There are Arab Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, African Muslims in many countries, etc.  They are not all of the same race (unless you mean the human race, then there's no point splitting hairs).

 

[GR66]

Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.

Many secular ideologies have the characteristics of religions, and often times the way secular ideologies and religions are erased works out to be the same: utterly destroy and discredit the leadership, institutions and teachings, so anyone looking to follow this ideology sees that it only leads to ruin and marginalization, not power and success. Since most people prefer to follow paths that lead to power and success, these ideologies wither and fade away (unless some special circumstances arise: see the rebirth of National Socialism in Europe coinciding with expanding power of the EUrocrats, loss of national sovereignty, increasing immigration and gaining strength with the financial crisis and international terrorism of the more recent past).

That's not the same thing as National Socialism being crushed in a 6 year war and the fundamental underlying ideology being suppressed by an occupation force within a generation.  Given enough time and "events" Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, etc.  may eventually fade from history, but I don't for a minute think that a crushing military defeat of Islamist forces in Syria followed by a Western Occupation and a new Marshall Plan will wipe radical Islam off the face of the Earth. 

 

[Tuan]

Words matter in ‘ISIS’ war, so use ‘Daesh’
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/09/words-matter-isis-war-use-daesh/V85GYEuasEEJgrUun0dMUP/story.html?event=event25

THE MILITANTS who are killing civilians, raping and forcing captured women into sexual slavery, and beheading foreigners in Iraq and Syria are known by several names: the Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham, or ISIS; the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL; and, more recently, the Islamic State, or IS. French officials recently declared that that country would stop using any of those names and instead refer to the group as “Daesh.”

The Obama Administration should switch to this nomenclature, too, because how we talk about this group is central to defeating them.

 

[tomahawk6]

The most wanted man in Europe right now is Saleh Abdelslam.He and two others were stopped near the Belgian border and after questioning they were released.Hunt continues.

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-fugitive-slipped-police-232145227.html

 

[The Bread Guy]

The Institute for the Study of War has assembled a bit of a network chart of folks involved in the attack here - more detail here.

 

[opcougar]

@Tuan..you alluded to this in your post above.

This is interesting and I guess you can say the people have a point

Facebook accused of ‘selectively sympathizing’ with Paris over Beirut

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/media/digital/2015/11/16/Facebook-accused-of-selectively-sympathizing-with-Paris-over-Beirut.html