NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[Fishbone Jones]

Just think of it as being like an HTA demerit points grid. Practically the same idea.

It appears that there's different types of second degree murder.

New York Second Degree Murder Laws - FindLaw

Chart providing details of New York Second Degree Murder Laws

www.findlaw.com

Federal statute states that anyone guilty of murder in the second degree shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

Second Degree Murder Penalties and Sentencing - FindLaw

After a jury has found a defendant guilty of second degree murder, the case moves on to the sentencing phase. Learn about the sentencing and penalties for second degree murder cases, and more, by visiting FindLaw's section on Homicide.

www.findlaw.com

 

[KevinB]

It appears that there's different types of second degree murder.

New York Second Degree Murder Laws - FindLaw

Chart providing details of New York Second Degree Murder Laws

www.findlaw.com

Federal statute states that anyone guilty of murder in the second degree shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

Second Degree Murder Penalties and Sentencing - FindLaw

After a jury has found a defendant guilty of second degree murder, the case moves on to the sentencing phase. Learn about the sentencing and penalties for second degree murder cases, and more, by visiting FindLaw's section on Homicide.

www.findlaw.com

Manslaughter and Murder while both Homicides are different things. Both are state items however not Federal.


From the NY Statute.

Pursuant to the statute, a person commits second-degree murder in one of five ways:

1. with the intent to cause the death of another person, he or she causes the death of such person or a third person;
2. under circumstances demonstrating a "depraved indifference to human life," the defendant "recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of another person";
3. acting alone or in concert with others, the defendant commits or attempts to commit a specified felony (including robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape, and sexual abuse) and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of immediate flight therefrom, he or she causes the death of a non-participant;
4. under circumstances demonstrating a "depraved indifference to human life," a defendant 18 years old or more "recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of serious physical injury or death" to a person less than 11 years old and causes the death of such person; or
5. while in the course of committing a specified crime such as rape, a criminal sexual act or sexual abuse, a defendant 18 years old or more intentionally causes the death of a person less than 14 years old.

 

[KevinB]

I don’t think I am intelligent enough to deal with the way American laws work. I find it almost impenetrable.

It really isn’t that much different than Canada, other than the separate States have Criminal Codes, and there are Federal Criminal Statutes as well.
That takes a lot more effort to sort out.
It’s also why we do a lot of Joint Task Forces, so you get Fed, State and local LE to ensure you can bag all the relevant charges.
Then the respective DA’s get to work.

Just think of it as being like an HTA demerit points grid. Practically the same idea.

Instead of having sentencing guidelines for each individual offense - like offenses are grouped together in the classes that have their own sentencing guidelines.

 

[brihard]

It appears that there's different types of second degree murder.

New York Second Degree Murder Laws - FindLaw

Chart providing details of New York Second Degree Murder Laws

www.findlaw.com

Federal statute states that anyone guilty of murder in the second degree shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

Second Degree Murder Penalties and Sentencing - FindLaw

After a jury has found a defendant guilty of second degree murder, the case moves on to the sentencing phase. Learn about the sentencing and penalties for second degree murder cases, and more, by visiting FindLaw's section on Homicide.

www.findlaw.com

Yup- but that’s murder not manslaughter, my understanding is he’s due to be arraigned on second degree manslaughter? Not sure if you just hit the wrong link there or if murder might be in play and I missed that.

Another point to bear in mind is that you’re quoting something that refers to both state AND federal law. It appears he’ll be prosecuted by the state. Kev can correct me, but I believe federal statute for sentencing wouldn’t apply to a state prosecution. In effect each state has its own Criminal Code inclusive of sentencing, and separately, federal prosecutors can prosecute similar offences if something places it in federal jurisdiction. I haven’t seen anything suggesting the feds are involved in this one.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Murder/manslaughter. Yup, I see where I went wrong there.

 

[KevinB]

It appears he’ll be prosecuted by the state. Kev can correct me, but I believe federal statute for sentencing wouldn’t apply to a state prosecution.

Correct.

In effect each state has its own Criminal Code inclusive of sentencing, and separately, federal prosecutors can prosecute similar offences if something places it in federal jurisdiction.

Correct.

I haven’t seen anything suggesting the feds are involved in this one.

Federal Murder charges generally require more than just a murder (as silly as that sounds).

18 U.S.C. §1111​

​

Generally they require some Federal linkage.
Federal Elected or Appointed Officials
Federal Judge or LEO (or the immediate family of a Fed LEO)
Attempts to Influence the outcome of a Federal Court case by murder
Murders during Bank Robberies, Rape, or Sexual Exploitation of Children, Drug related murders.
Murder for Hire, Murders using the Mail (just US Post, as you apparently can UPS/FedEx a bomb and kill someone without it being Federal unless it crosses state lines), Murders of Ships or Aircraft (or interstate transport; bus, train)

A few more but that gives the gist of it.


Now where the Federal Aspect often pops up is in relation to people’s civil rights. This was big in the South when dealing with African-American and civil rights workers ‘disappearing’ (think Mississippi Burning) as they proceeded to charge for Fed Murder under Civil Rights Violations.
I’m m unsure if this could pop up if the State doesn’t adequately address the issue to the satisfaction of the Federal Government.

 

[mariomike]

Now where the Federal Aspect often pops up is in relation to people’s civil rights. This was big in the South when dealing with African-American and civil rights workers ‘disappearing’ (think Mississippi Burning) as they proceeded to charge for Fed Murder under Civil Rights Violations.
I’m m unsure if this could pop up if the State doesn’t adequately address the issue to the satisfaction of the Federal Government.

Civil Rights Violations popped up with George Floyd.

3 former Minneapolis police officers guilty of violating George Floyd's civil rights​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/officers-convicted-of-violating-george-floyd-civil-rights-feb-24-1.6363552

Those three, and Derek too,

Ex-officer Derek Chauvin sentenced to 21 years for violating George Floyd's civil rights​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/derek-chauvin-george-floyd-civil-rights-sentence-1.6513628

 

[mariomike]

, with an average travel time between stops being 3 min

I also read this,

Typical stops in Manhattan are one to two minutes apart.

Apparently the incident took place on the F Train between the Second Ave. Station and Broadway–Lafayette Street/Bleecker Street station.

Looks like a two-minute ride. But, the timeline of the incident may be different.

Not sure if there are open walk ways between NYC subway cars. TTC has them, if you want to walk to another car while the train is in motion.

I assume NYC has security digital recording cameras in their subway cars.

They may also have emergency alarms,

What to do in an emergency in the subway​

• If there is a situation that requires emergency medical, police or fire services, press the yellow emergency alarm strip. The emergency alarm is a yellow strip located above the windows, along the wheelchair positions and near the doors of the subway car.
• When the emergency alarm is activated, the subway will proceed to the next station. The alarm alerts Transit Control, where specially trained staff triages the situation and contact 9-1-1, if required.

The doors open, and stay open. The train does not move until the situation is cleared.

 

[lenaitch]

Hopefully, someone has pushed the emergency shut off button under the blue light at the end of the platforms.

It seems from the linked article that the NYC system does not have publicly-accessible shut-off stations.

Platform doors would help, but they obviously add cost and are very difficult to retrofit because of the required tech (train has to stop at exactly the right spot) and they can impact ventilation if they are not baked into the design of the tunnels and stations.. Also, some jurisdictions didn't run them all the ceiling, which created its own problems.

 

[mariomike]

When possible, if the situation can wait that long, best to let experienced police and paramedics who do it for a living take care of EDPs .

May 11, 2023

Grand jury doesn’t indict Dallas officers, medic after transgender woman’s death

LaDamonyon “DeeDee” Hall died May 26 in authorities’ care after officers and Dallas Fire-Rescue were called to reports of a disturbance. The Dallas County...

www.dallasnews.com

A Dallas County grand jury Thursday declined to indict several Dallas police officers and a paramedic who handcuffed and restrained a woman before she became unresponsive and died last year, according to attorneys involved.

 

[brihard]

Update: Various media sources are reporting that Daniel Penny has been indicted by a grand jury. No surprise there, though it took a little while. The exact charge(s) aren't yet known.

Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny in chokehold death of Jordan Neely

A grand jury has decided to indict Daniel Penny in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the New York City subway.

abcnews.go.com

EDIT TO ADD: NBC is saying second degree manslaughter. Seems about right. Second degree manslaughter, in New York State, is to "recklessly cause the death of another person", but doesn't require that the accused intended to cause serious physical injury - that's first degree manslaughter.

Daniel Penny indicted by N.Y. grand jury in Jordan Neely subway death

The Marine veteran was indicted on a second-degree manslaughter charge in the May death of the homeless street performer.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[brihard]

Update: The jury has been in deliberations, and were deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. At the request of prosecutors, the judge has dismissed the manslaughter charge, and the jury will continue deliberating on the other charge on Monday. The remaining charge is Crminally Negligent Homicide. The best Canadian comparator under our criminal code would probably be Criminal Negligence Causing Death.

Judge dismisses manslaughter charge in Daniel Penny trial after jury deadlock

The anonymous jury will still consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[CBH99]

Update: The jury has been in deliberations, and were deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. At the request of prosecutors, the judge has dismissed the manslaughter charge, and the jury will continue deliberating on the other charge on Monday. The remaining charge is Crminally Negligent Homicide. The best Canadian comparator under our criminal code would probably be Criminal Negligence Causing Death.

Judge dismisses manslaughter charge in Daniel Penny trial after jury deadlock

The anonymous jury will still consider the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.

www.nbcnews.com

Brihard - I realize this is anybody's best guess, but since you seem to have followed this case a lot more closely than I have...what is your take on the above?

Usually it's a good thing for an accused if some chargers go away. But in this case it almost seems like the prosecutor took away the possibility of the accused to be convicted & sentenced on the lesser charge, putting all of his eggs in securing a conviction of Criminally Neglegent Homicide?

 

[brihard]

Brihard - I realize this is anybody's best guess, but since you seem to have followed this case a lot more closely than I have...what is your take on the above?

Usually it's a good thing for an accused if some chargers go away. But in this case it almost seems like the prosecutor took away the possibility of the accused to be convicted & sentenced on the lesser charge, putting all of his eggs in securing a conviction of Criminally Neglegent Homicide?

I haven’t followed the trial at all.

Manslaughter was the more serious charge and the jury was utterly deadlocked. The prosecution has pulled the more serious charge off the table.

Without knowing why they were deadlocked, it’s hard to read tea leaves. Maybe there’s one juror versus the rest who’s absolutely adamant that they won’t go a particular way. Maybe they were significantly split on one element of the offence. Tough to say.

Having the heaviest offence off the table is obviously good for the accused. The deliberations will shift somewhat in the elements of intent they need to consider regarding his conduct. He could win on the question of malice but lose on the question of negligence. Or there may again be a juror or jurors utterly and irrevocably opposed to the others. Jurors aren’t accountable to anyone for their decision.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I haven’t followed the trial at all.

Manslaughter was the more serious charge and the jury was utterly deadlocked. The prosecution has pulled the more serious charge off the table.

Without knowing why they were deadlocked, it’s hard to read tea leaves. Maybe there’s one juror versus the rest who’s absolutely adamant that they won’t go a particular way. Maybe they were significantly split on one element of the offence. Tough to say.

Having the heaviest offence off the table is obviously good for the accused. The deliberations will shift somewhat in the elements of intent they need to consider regarding his conduct. He could win on the question of malice but lose on the question of negligence. Or there may again be a juror or jurors utterly and irrevocably opposed to the others. Jurors aren’t accountable to anyone for their decision.

Well one of the nice things about the US justice system is that jury members are allowed to discuss what happened during deliberations.

 

[brihard]

Well one of the nice things about the US justice system is that jury members are allowed to discuss what happened during deliberations.

Personally I prefer the complete confidentiality of ours. It serves to protect jurors if they make a decision they believe is correct but is unpopular. I see it as a guardrail.

 

[KevinB]

Well Daniel Penny was found not guilty.

Daniel Penny found not guilty in NY subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

The case sparked weeks of protests and reignited national debate over race, mental illness, and public safety in the US.

www.bbc.com

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well Daniel Penny was found not guilty.

Daniel Penny found not guilty in NY subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

The case sparked weeks of protests and reignited national debate over race, mental illness, and public safety in the US.

www.bbc.com

Dayum...

And the lesser charge is up next ....

 

[brihard]

Dayum...

And the lesser charge is up next ....

No, that was the lesser charge. He no longer faces criminal jeopardy. Civil could be another matter.

 

[KevinB]

Dayum...

And the lesser charge is up next ....

No that was the lesser charge.

Which to me makes zero sense - as if they where going to let him off regardless why even deliberate for 5 days and have the DA reduce the charge.