Ontario Election: New riding and choices.

[Brad Sallows]

>I always thought caucus voting was the better option

"Democracy" has several flavours, but any system which relies mostly on delegated representation is likely to produce superior outcomes to pure "majoritarian" (which I always substitute with "mob") democracy.

 

[Underway]

The problem with the NDP the first time round was that they went against their own unions.  The current NDP will just strengthen them to Greece like proportions and by them off.  At least Bob Rae realized how screwed the province was.  The current NDP have no clue despite the current rosy economic picture. 

Given that young voters tend to vote left and get more conservative as they age we are guaranteed an NDP majority here.  With the millennial vote you can take it to the bank.  The rise of Trudeau is another example of this.  If you have no policies (or in the case of the PC's no policies at all, wheres the platform Mr. Ford??) that focus on millenials and their concerns you might as well just quit the race right now.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have a couple of questions for those so enamoured with Horvath.

1. How do you feel about living in a welfare sanctuary province?

2. How do you envision making a living when she wants to take billions more from your pocket?

3. How do you feel about your taxes supporting criminal gangs like MS13?

4. Do you agree extending the grit green plan by closing a clean, efficient nuclear generating plant and pay more for hydro?

5. Where is the money coming from for all her promises?

6. Is she going to bail out Toronto's sanctuary city bill?

7. Her plan includes the end of resource extraction. No oil, gold, gas, diamonds and uranium. Do you agree?

That's just a few problems I hear none of the Horvath crowd talking about.

Care to shed some light?

 

[Altair]

I have a couple of questions for those so enamoured with Horvath.

1. How do you feel about living in a welfare sanctuary province?

2. How do you envision making a living when she wants to take billions more from your pocket?

3. How do you feel about your taxes supporting criminal gangs like MS13?

4. Do you agree extending the grit green plan by closing a clean, efficient nuclear generating plant and pay more for hydro?

5. Where is the money coming from for all her promises?

6. Is she going to bail out Toronto's sanctuary city bill?

7. Her plan includes the end of resource extraction. No oil, gold, gas, diamonds and uranium. Do you agree?

That's just a few problems I hear none of the Horvath crowd talking about.

Care to shed some light?

I'm pretty sure people are thinking that they cannot be worst than the liberals and left leaning voters want nothing to do with ford.

I don't think people are enamoured with horvath as much as they are enamoured with the idea that they don't need to put up with Ford or Wynne anymore.

And I know I'm a broken record,  but this doesn't happen with Mulroney or Elliot.

 

[PuckChaser]

I still fail to see how Doug Ford is the far-right Godzilla that will outlaw abortions and put the Lord's Prayer back in school that he's portrayed to be. He's made mistakes that are no different than the other leaders, but can't do anything right. Anyone that uses "Donald Trump" as a reason not to vote for Ford is just using the modern version of Godwin's Law IMO: they've lost any ability to have a rational discussion or debate.

 

[Remius]

I'm pretty sure people are thinking that they cannot be worst than the liberals and left leaning voters want nothing to do with ford.

I don't think people are enamoured with horvath as much as they are enamoured with the idea that they don't need to put up with Ford or Wynne anymore.

And I know I'm a broken record,  but this doesn't happen with Mulroney or Elliot.

That’s a good take on it.  It seems that ethical behaviour is the flavour right now.  Wynne has run out of any capital on that and people may be realizing that Ford is no better.  The PC party has a massive credibility problem now with the shenanigans in their nomination processes and now Ford himself being linked to thing s like bogus memberships.  Horvath comes off as more likeable and the NDP seem like a viable way to stop Ford so people are parking their support there.  Ford’s inexperience is showing too. 

It is less about supporting Horvath and the NDP and more about stopping Ford.  The Liberals aren’t even a factor anymore.

 

[PuckChaser]

The Liberals don't have a credibility problem? They just had 2 senior staffers convicted of criminally deleting documents related to the closure of a gas plant for political gain. The then minority Liberal government would have fallen if the NDP under Andrea Horwath didn't prop them up years ago. I think the only credibility problem is with the credibility of the political news coverage from the mainstream media.

 

[Altair]

I still fail to see how Doug Ford is the far-right Godzilla that will outlaw abortions and put the Lord's Prayer back in school that he's portrayed to be. He's made mistakes that are no different than the other leaders, but can't do anything right. Anyone that uses "Donald Trump" as a reason not to vote for Ford is just using the modern version of Godwin's Law IMO: they've lost any ability to have a rational discussion or debate.

And that's fair in my opinion,  and to date,  since the new rules came out,  I don't think anyone has said that.

That said,  its not like ford has exactly dome much to inspire voters from the NDP or Liberals to want to vote for him.

And its not like the ford family is a unknown entity,  people know what to expect from the ford family from their time running toronto.

He says weird things like how its a gotcha question when asked about how the legislative process works. Or how he plans to stop any carbon tax,  balance the budget and not cut a single job. And say what you will about how the NDP platform shakes out,  at least we know what it is.

He is what he is,  a guy who will motivate the conservative base. He's not a guy who will convince left leaning voters to give him a chance. He also motivates a lot of left leaning voters to rally against him. We shall see how this shakes out in the end,  but things seem to be shifting on the ground and the NDP have a lot of momentum simply by not being the other guys.

 

[Remius]

Puck chaser: Um did you not read what I wrote?  I stated that Wynne has llost all capital on ethical behaviour and that the Liberals are not a factor in this election. At all.

Where did I state that they don’t have a credibility problem?

 

[Altair]

The Liberals don't have a credibility problem? They just had 2 senior staffers convicted of criminally deleting documents related to the closure of a gas plant for political gain. The then minority Liberal government would have fallen if the NDP under Andrea Horwath didn't prop them up years ago. I think the only credibility problem is with the credibility of the political news coverage from the mainstream media.

the liberals definitely has a credibility problem. And with the way their vote is collapsing the voters will punish them for it.

The problem for Ford is that he isn't reaping the rewards of that collapsing liberal vote.

Hell,  ironic as it may sound,  he may have been better off with a stronger liberal party splitting the vote on the left.

 

[PuckChaser]

Puck chaser: Um did you not read what I wrote?  I stated that Wynne has llost all capital on ethical behaviour and that the Liberals are not a factor in this election. At all.

Where did I state that they don’t have a credibility problem?

It was a link to state the NDP is just as credibility-deficient as the Liberals. The NDP have no leg to stand on after they could have ended the Ontario Liberals years ago with a perfect political scandal, but didn't.

 

[Remius]

It was a link to state the NDP is just as credibility-deficient as the Liberals. The NDP have no leg to stand on after they could have ended the Ontario Liberals years ago with a perfect political scandal, but didn't.

That’s politics. 

The credibility issue is more about vote rigging, tainted nomination runs, sexual harassment scandals etc and yes liberals going to jail.

People see the NDP as less tainted.

The problem for them though is if they peaked too early and their inexperience being in the lead and campaigning that way.  I’ve mentioned the PCs having a more efficient vote distribution and that will be a factor come Election Day.

This is a change election.  If they see the same taint in the Liberals and the PCs then the NDP benefits.

Given how the campaign started, the PC party was banking on Liberals dissatifaction across the province to be their ace in the hole.  They now need to do more than just sit and make comments with no substance.  They are going to have to come up with more detail on their platform, focus on the economy and show people they are the better change. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ford voters know how they're voting and have no reason to answer polls.  The same thing happened with Trump. The base waited for the vote while Clintons bunch believed the polls. Given the biased treatment of the MSM and that polls are written to effect what result the buyer wants, I think Horvath is in for a kick in the nuts come election night. People can fault Ford all they want with their petty politics and smear campaigns, he's more than likey your next Premier. Hopefully, with a handy.

So far as the smear campaign against him by Horvath and Wynne it was investigated, by the party ethics people and Ford was found not at fault and there was no impropriety on his part.

That Mulroney or Elliot could or could not have won is immaterial and wasteful. That is in the past and has no bearing on anything whatsoever in the present. 'What ifs' are useless and only draw the discussion from reality.

I'm still waiting for someone NDP to answer my questions.

 

[Altair]

Who here is NDP to answer your questions?

 

[Remius]

I suggest you post those questions on RABBLE or something.  You’ll likely get their answers on there.

Judging by most people here I’m not sure there are any real NDP types here.

 

[Remius]

This article from macleans from March is almost prescient about what is actually happeneing in Ontario I think.  Many parallels with the Alberta election. 

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/when-the-politically-unthinkable-happens-why-cant-canadians-see-the-signs/

 

[Infanteer]

Good article.  I wonder if the problem of bias and disconnection are due to the fact that we seem to treat "who did you vote for" as some sort of deep and personal secret...like some sort of bedroom talk.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Now the NDP has another lunatic. This one wants to kill American gun owners with drones during a civil war.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ndp-candidate-would-not-be-sad-to-see-gun-nuts-blown-apart-in-drone-strikes/

 

[FJAG]

So today I get a call from my local PC constituency office with a short survey. The third question was whether I would be voting conservative. I replied that while I've been a conservative for almost fifty years and certainly wouldn't be voting NDP or Liberal, that I was seriously thinking of not voting since "my" party decided it believed Doug Ford would be the best leader. I suspect she only had a small check box to fill and either didn't care what I said or had a script that didn't handle my position and in a cheery voice thanked me for my support. Go figure. Waiting to see if there is a follow up call.  op:

:cheers:

 

[Altair]

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/onvotes/poll-tracker/

Poll tracker starting to shift.

NDP now winning popular vote,  PCs most seats but continuing to fall.

Lets see how the next few weeks go. This is one of the more interesting elections I've seen in a while.