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Ontario Majority Government 2022-2026

The Bread Guy said:
I will give her a smidgen of credit, though, for, when realizing she was sinking the ship, announced before the 2018 election (OK, a few days, but still ...) that she was stepping down after the election.

If only other Team Red franchise coaches could learn from this well before any election, right?
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The Bread Guy said:
To be fair, while haters are going to hate, Ford's been better than some on stopping some trains before they went completely off the tracks.

Also, unless something HUGE is pried out of investigations, my humble read is that part of his popularity is from how he can turn-around/flip-flop and look like he's made an honest mistake. Others' reads may vary, though.
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I think you're right, I know it impacts my impression of him.

Only in politics do we call it flip-flopping when someone changes their mind based on overwhelming evidence their decision/course of action is not going well.
 
Furniture said:
I think you're right, I know it impacts my impression of him.

Only in politics do we call it flip-flopping when someone changes their mind based on overwhelming evidence their decision/course of action is not going well.
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The thing I'm having trouble with is that it takes a fairly high level of suspension of disbelief to buy into the idea that he (Ford) was actually ignorant to what was happening.

If scenario A is that Clark/D'Amato were the compromised party that led an him down the garden path blissfully unaware, thinking he was acting in the best interests of the province on the advice of an ethically sound Minister, and the backtracks of the last ~6 weeks are his honest attempts to right the wrongs that he didn't know were wrongs at the time

and scenario B is that he was complicit all along, Clark/D'Amato were acting on his instruction and were the fall guys in a layered CYA response in which reversing the decisions is the final grudging step to damage control after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar...

I'd give 4:1 is that B is what happened. As such I am hesitant to give the same amount of credit to finally reversing the result of corruption that you were party to as a last ditch effort to save your own skin as I would to genuinely acknowledging error and changing your mind based on overwhelming evidence- because it isn't so much that he changed his mind on whether it was a good idea, instead he just changed his mind on whether he could get away with it.

That being said, I'd very much like to believe that a principled faction of caucus pushed back and has had a big role in how the last months have played out- and that gives me hope. I'd also very much like to be wrong about scenario A vs. B, and have it revealed that Clark went rogue.
 
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Halifax Tar said:
Could the Ford rebound have anything to do with a lack of options ?

I don't follow Ont politics anymore, so I could be way out in left field.
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There is no other real options/contenders at the moment. Couldn’t even tell you who the opposition leader is.

I don’t particularly care for ford, but no one is really offering what this province needs in my opinion. He is just the best of a bunch of poor choices at the moment.
 
IKnowNothing said:
The thing I'm having trouble with is that it takes a fairly high level of suspension of disbelief to buy into the idea that he (Ford) was actually ignorant to what was happening.

If scenario A is that Clark/D'Amato were the compromised party that led an him down the garden path blissfully unaware, thinking he was acting in the best interests of the province on the advice of an ethically sound Minister, and the backtracks of the last ~6 weeks are his honest attempts to right the wrongs that he didn't know were wrongs at the time

and scenario B is that he was complicit all along, Clark/D'Amato were acting on his instruction and were the fall guys in a layered CYA response in which reversing the decisions is the final grudging step to damage control after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar...

I'd give 4:1 is that B is what happened. As such I am hesitant to give the same amount of credit to finally reversing the result of corruption that you were party to as a last ditch effort to save your own skin as I would to genuinely acknowledging error and changing your mind based on overwhelming evidence- because it isn't so much that he changed his mind on whether it was a good idea, instead he just changed his mind on whether he could get away with it.

That being said, I'd very much like to believe that a principled faction of caucus pushed back and has had a big role in how the last months have played out- and that gives me hope. I'd also very much like to be wrong about scenario A vs. B, and have it revealed that Clark went rogue.
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I assume all politicians are corrupt, and someone close to them is benefiting from their decisions.

This time they got caught, and it got sorted. It's better than the alternative of getting caught and pushing onward anyway.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
There is no other real options/contenders at the moment. Couldn’t even tell you who the opposition leader is.

I don’t particularly care for ford, but no one is really offering what this province needs in my opinion. He is just the best of a bunch of poor choices at the moment.
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That could change if Bonnie Crombie (ex Liberal MPP, mayor of Mississauga) wins the Liberal leadership. Lots of name recognition and experience in vote-rich GTA.
 
Furniture said:
I assume all politicians are corrupt, and someone close to them is benefiting from their decisions.

This time they got caught, and it got sorted. It's better than the alternative of getting caught and pushing onward anyway.
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Well, until the investigation is complete and we have more, and proper proof, we'll just have to call it a mistake.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
Well, until the investigation is complete and we have more, and proper proof, we'll just have to call it a mistake.
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We've had an AG investigation into the Greenbelt- wrongdoing was found and the process declared improper- the government did not contest the findings.

We've had an Integrity Commissioner investigation into the Greenbelt (at Ford's request)- wrongdoing was found and the process declared improper- the government did not contest the findings.

The chief of staff implicated in both investigations has since resigned. The minister responsible for overseeing said chief of staff has resigned, because they were either grossly negligent, or involved.

Then there's the Rasheed resignation and Flato connections.

Then there's the current housing minister deciding to expand his own investigation into all the major actions of the last one, and the decision to start reversing them
“Since becoming minister of municipal affairs and housing, I’ve made it a priority to review past decisions to ensure that they support our goal of building at least 1.5 million homes and to ensure that the decisions that we made were done in a manner that maintains and reinforces public trust,” Calandra said.

“This includes decisions on minister zoning orders and official plans. Now, when reviewing how decisions were made regarding official plans, it is clear that they failed to meet this test.”

There is currently an ongoing AG investigation into those same matters that he's gotten out in front of.

D'Amato was dirty, Clark either incompetent or dirty, and the majority of the Ford's government action on the housing file over the last 5 years exposed as the result of inappropriate influence from a small number of developers. In order to contest that statement and choose to give the benefit of the doubt that we've had five years of honest mistakes that just all coincidentally serve the same agenda in a surprisingly systemic fashion you'd have to have your head buried so far in the sand that it runs the risk of going up a chinaman's ass.


There are two questions unanswered that the RCMP investigation may reveal- does the known wrongdoing rise to the level of criminal, rather than just wrong, and what was Ford's personal involvement.
 
lenaitch said:
That could change if Bonnie Crombie (ex Liberal MPP, mayor of Mississauga) wins the Liberal leadership. Lots of name recognition and experience in vote-rich GTA.
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Tempered, as well, by links to (expectations from?) a load of the same development interests (assuming we believe the linked bought-and-paid-for media in question) that have been a pebble in Premier Ford's sandal, though.

Ford may have shaken this pebble out for now, but we'll have to see how it unfolds if Crombie becomes Team Red's Ontario franchise captain.
 
IKnowNothing said:
There are two questions unanswered that the RCMP investigation may reveal- does the known wrongdoing rise to the level of criminal, rather than just wrong, and what was Ford's personal involvement.
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Imagine the cry if Ford were to claim Provincial Cabinet Confidence to suppress the RCMP’s access to certain documents during its investigation? 😆
 
Good2Golf said:
Imagine the cry if Ford were to claim Provincial Cabinet Confidence to suppress the RCMP’s access to certain documents during its investigation? 😆
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Huh. I’m not actually sure if there is a provincial Cabinet Confidence that can shield information from criminal investigation. The federal cabinet confidence is found in a.39 of the Canada Evidence Act, and is utterly bulletproof. I don’t think provincial cabinet enjoys that immunity. This is gonna bug the hell out of me until I find out now.
 
brihard said:
Huh. I’m not actually sure if there is a provincial Cabinet Confidence that can shield information from criminal investigation. The federal cabinet confidence is found in a.39 of the Canada Evidence Act, and is utterly bulletproof. I don’t think provincial cabinet enjoys that immunity. This is gonna bug the hell out of me until I find out now.
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Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca

As far as I can tell, yes, although not specifically named as such, but it gives cause to consider that there may be a case to review legislations at both the provincial and federal levels that impact public accountability of both elected officials and public civil servants.
 
brihard said:
Huh. I’m not actually sure if there is a provincial Cabinet Confidence that can shield information from criminal investigation. The federal cabinet confidence is found in a.39 of the Canada Evidence Act, and is utterly bulletproof. I don’t think provincial cabinet enjoys that immunity. This is gonna bug the hell out of me until I find out now.
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The only certain way is to run for office and become an utterly corrupt premier and see how things unfold.
 
Good2Golf said:
Imagine the cry if Ford were to claim Provincial Cabinet Confidence to suppress the RCMP’s access to certain documents during its investigation? 😆
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Imagine if this discussion went a full page without someone throwing out a red-herring to shift discussion away from the actual actions of the Ontario Majority government :LOL:
 
IKnowNothing said:
We've had an AG investigation into the Greenbelt- wrongdoing was found and the process declared improper- the government did not contest the findings.

We've had an Integrity Commissioner investigation into the Greenbelt (at Ford's request)- wrongdoing was found and the process declared improper- the government did not contest the findings.

The chief of staff implicated in both investigations has since resigned. The minister responsible for overseeing said chief of staff has resigned, because they were either grossly negligent, or involved.

Then there's the Rasheed resignation and Flato connections.

Then there's the current housing minister deciding to expand his own investigation into all the major actions of the last one, and the decision to start reversing them
“Since becoming minister of municipal affairs and housing, I’ve made it a priority to review past decisions to ensure that they support our goal of building at least 1.5 million homes and to ensure that the decisions that we made were done in a manner that maintains and reinforces public trust,” Calandra said.

“This includes decisions on minister zoning orders and official plans. Now, when reviewing how decisions were made regarding official plans, it is clear that they failed to meet this test.”

There is currently an ongoing AG investigation into those same matters that he's gotten out in front of.

D'Amato was dirty, Clark either incompetent or dirty, and the majority of the Ford's government action on the housing file over the last 5 years exposed as the result of inappropriate influence from a small number of developers. In order to contest that statement and choose to give the benefit of the doubt that we've had five years of honest mistakes that just all coincidentally serve the same agenda in a surprisingly systemic fashion you'd have to have your head buried so far in the sand that it runs the risk of going up a chinaman's ass.


There are two questions unanswered that the RCMP investigation may reveal- does the known wrongdoing rise to the level of criminal, rather than just wrong, and what was Ford's personal involvement.
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The highlighted portion is all you needed to write. We're talking about Ford's involvment. Right now, there is nothing proven of personal involvement.

The buck stops here is not evidence.

There, back on track.
 
IKnowNothing said:
Imagine if this discussion went a full page without someone throwing out a red-herring to shift discussion away from the actual actions of the Ontario Majority government :LOL:
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Notice how the conversation carried on to discuss pan-governmental accountability and the relation of evidentiary responsibility? All levels of government should be held to account, both procedurally and ethically.

I see you didn’t point out where I (never) said that Premier Ford shouldn’t be held to account.
 
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Good2Golf said:

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca

As far as I can tell, yes, although not specifically named as such, but it gives cause to consider that there may be a case to review legislations at both the provincial and federal levels that impact public accountability of both elected officials and public civil servants.
Click to expand...
Right, but check Section 2- the applicability of that act is limited to the jurisdiction of the Ontario legislature; so, provincial statutes. I don’t see that that would shield provincial public documents from disclosure in a criminal proceeding, or search and seizure powers under a federal statute. I’m not a lawyer, but this one looks like pretty plain reading.
 
brihard said:
Right, but check Section 2- the applicability of that act is limited to the jurisdiction of the Ontario legislature; so, provincial statutes. I don’t see that that would shield provincial public documents from disclosure in a criminal proceeding, or search and seizure powers under a federal statute. I’m not a lawyer, but this one looks like pretty plain reading.
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Ack, didn’t know if the RCMP intended to lay CCC charges.
 
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