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Ottawa police officers charged with taking bribes from tow truck owners

mariomike

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lenaitch said:
Paid duties are extremely lucrative in places like Toronto, and a CRA ruling a few years back pretty much forced the employer to run payments through their payroll system so it shows up on T4s.  Prior to that it was considered a matter between the copper and the paying company and the copper was expected to report the income.  It seems many (most/all) didn't.

If I recall correctly, Toronto Paramedic paid duty went on the T4's circa 2015. I think Metro Police did the same around that time.

lenaitch said:
Also, Toronto used to schedule court for off duty time to maintain street coverage, so gobs of o/t.  I don't know what it does now.

I don't know if they do now either. But, they used to. From 2009,

Court work pays off in massive overtime
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/03/28/court_work_pays_off_in_massive_overtime.html

Bruce Monkhouse said:
That money was paid for by time not spent with family, friends, sporting events, etc...

Yes. It also saves the city having train, equip, pay benefits etc. to new hires. They can also claim high productivity per member.

lenaitch said:
The shoulder of a freeway is a scary place. 

Tow truck drivers had to jump over guard rails same as we did.

( Just make sure it is not elevated.  :) )



 

BeyondTheNow

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It’s worth noting that salaries for regional police are reflective of the area they serve also. ie a Cst in Toronto will be making more than a Cst in Cornwall who has the same time in and qualifications simply due to cost of living and other considerations.

As well, keep in mind there are officers who remain Csts (for varying reasons) throughout their entire career, which in some cases can be quite lengthy. They’re going to be making comfortable salaries by that point. So it’s important to not only view pay scale in relation to their level—there can be other factors taken into account wrt the amounts being earned.
 

mariomike

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BeyondTheNow said:
It’s worth noting that salaries for regional police are reflective of the area they serve also. ie a Cst in Toronto will be making more than a Cst in Cornwall who has the time time in and qualifications simply due to cost of living and other considerations.

For reference,

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay
https://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-PDFs/Reports/2011/2011AbilitytoPayPositionPaper2011.aspx

 

exspy

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Ostrozac said:
The Bank of Canada inflation calculator puts $19,000 in 1980 as equivalent to $61,000 in 2020. So in real terms a new Constable making $68,000 has about a ten percent pay raise over what you made back in the day.  It's certainly more, but it's in the same ballpark. Did you get overtime pay back in the day? That can certainly be a real game changer.

Yeah, I got overtime for court and missed lunches, but no paid duties for rookies. Many of the constables volunteered to become breathalyzer operators for the extra court time which, as someone pointed out, would really cut in to your time off.

The Region I worked for wouldn't issue a pay cheque in excess of $5,000 dollars. A detective constable I knew back then once had to receive two separate cheques for one two-week pay period to cover his overtime. I never even came close.

Cheers,
Dan.
 

Eaglelord17

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Personally I am a strong believer that Police pay (and most the public service) needs a cut.

The reality is Police in this country are better paid than ever before, safer than ever before (crime is at all time lows), and better equipped than ever before especially in comparison to the public. High capacity handguns, body armour, AR-15s in the squad cars, significantly higher quality of training, etc. Vs 40 years ago, no body armour, a revolver, and maybe a shotgun, crime was higher, and your quality of training was lower.

I think the average wage of your frontline officer should be around 75k a year plus OT. With the saving you have made on pay, hire more police officers. Also put in restrictions if the OT reaches above a certain point you must hire more officers to fill in the difference as clearly it requires more officers at standard rate to handle it.
 

mariomike

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Eaglelord17 said:
Personally I am a strong believer that Police pay (and most the public service) needs a cut.

I have the opposite opinion when it comes to our 9-1-1 services.

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/102608.0.html
5 pages.


 

Remius

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Eaglelord17 said:
Personally I am a strong believer that Police pay (and most the public service) needs a cut.

The reality is Police in this country are better paid than ever before, safer than ever before (crime is at all time lows), and better equipped than ever before especially in comparison to the public. High capacity handguns, body armour, AR-15s in the squad cars, significantly higher quality of training, etc. Vs 40 years ago, no body armour, a revolver, and maybe a shotgun, crime was higher, and your quality of training was lower.

I think the average wage of your frontline officer should be around 75k a year plus OT. With the saving you have made on pay, hire more police officers. Also put in restrictions if the OT reaches above a certain point you must hire more officers to fill in the difference as clearly it requires more officers at standard rate to handle it.

I don’t have all the stats but is it really safer?  Maybe crime is down overall but are working conditions better?  Police are dealing more and more with mental health cases.  But also are expected to be pseudo social workers.  How much scrutiny do they have now that they didn’t before and how does that make them second guess what they do? 

I would question certain jobs we see police do that really could be done by lower paid workers.  Like some traffic control functions.  It seems like high paid work for a police officer to be directing traffic in construction zones when some days it’s a guy in a hard hat and safety vest doing it.  In Montreal it is very common to see a police officer controlling certain intersection lights manually to keep traffic moving.  They also use some of their cadets for that too.

You could increase your police officers for police work by taking them off tasks like that.
 

exspy

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Remius said:
It seems like high paid work for a police officer to be directing traffic in construction zones when some days it’s a guy in a hard hat and safety vest doing it.

Those officers working in a construction zone are doing a paid-duty on a day off. Some by-laws will stipulate that certain activities require a paid-duty officer be present. They don't take away from the numbers of officers on the street for that day.

The ones doing traffic control at intersections? Probably on duty. And while it's not the same as tracking down murderers, it is a learned skill, at least in my opinion. And if you've ever seen how the idiots clog the intersections in downtown Toronto, you'd want an officer at every intersection, traffic lights or not.

I would agree that there are some jobs that the police should not be doing, and I think that many Chiefs would agree with this, but if the police did not do them then nobody would. It's the same everywhere: If a responsibility is taken away from the police, then you have to create a bureaucracy to deal with that responsibility. In the long run, cost-wise, it's probably cheaper to leave things as they are.

As for pay, while you could pay the police less, always remember that you get what you pay for. Reduced pay would mean less qualified persons applying for the job and being accepted. I agree that it's a fine line.

Cheers,
Dan.
 

PuckChaser

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Anyone else think its ironic that we're talking about cutting PC pay based on an article of a bunch of dudes making upwards of $70-80K taking bribes?
 

Cloud Cover

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True, but it is long past time to “flatten the curve” of salary costs for police on a per capital basis:  https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/files/pdf/CostofPolicing_Final.pdf

And we have known this for quite some time, the data in the study above is from 2014 and things have presumably gotten much worse.
OTOH, there’s no political will to take on an arbitration system that is basically an invitation to larceny.
 

mariomike

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Walt said:
The annual pay for an entry level constable starts at $68,000, plus the added benefit of overtime & special duty pay.

In 2019, these three were paid,

$149,751.98

$122,149.71

$104,401.24

https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2019-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees

Regarding Paid Duty for police and paramedics. Always had it. And, always will for a range of events, including festivals, concerts, film shoots, parades and motor vehicle races, among others.

Off-duty members are called in so as not to decrease the scheduled count for the "regular" 9-1-1 calls.

In the Toronto media, most of the griping has been less about salary, and more about benefits such as the Sick Bank Gratuity and the post-retirement Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ).

For Metro police, the battle for the two-officer car was won by Sid Brown many years ago.

CloudCover said:
OTOH, there’s no political will to take on an arbitration system

( Former ) Ontario PC leader Tim Hudak had this to say,

Hudak vows to fix ‘broken arbitration system’
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2011/08/28/hudak_vows_to_fix_broken_arbitration_system.html







 

Navy_Pete

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PuckChaser said:
Anyone else think its ironic that we're talking about cutting PC pay based on an article of a bunch of dudes making upwards of $70-80K taking bribes?

I always thought that was a good argument to make sure police and others in the justice system made an above average salary; not sure if it's been studied, but common sense would say people that are living comfortably are less likely to put that at risk by being greasy.  Guess this seemed like an easy way for some extra cash with no real victim, but you can't pay for people to have ethics I guess.

Personally I think their salaries are fair, and if someone works enough OT to quadruple their salary, not sure why anyone would be upset about their paycheque.  I'd be worried about burnout and not being effective in their job, but that's their supervisors problem to worry about, and not for keyboard commanders.
 

Cloud Cover

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Hudak got bounced, didn’t he. Too right wing for most of us even.,
 

dapaterson

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Navy_Pete said:
I always thought that was a good argument to make sure police and others in the justice system made an above average salary; not sure if it's been studied, but common sense would say people that are living comfortably are less likely to put that at risk by being greasy.

Lots of stupid, criminal people who make lots of money, but who want more.  "Enough" is a very difficult thing to quantify.
 

exspy

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mariomike said:
Regarding Paid Duty for police and paramedics. Always had it. And, always will.

Paid duties are paid by the person or oganization requesting the officers, not the taxpayer.

Court time is paid for by the Ministry of the Attorney General, not the police service. Still taxpayers' money, but from a different budget line.

mariomike said:
In the Toronto media, most of the griping has been less about salary, and more about benefits such as the Sick Bank Gratuity and the post-retirement Health Care Spending Account (HCSA).

Anything post retirement is paid for the the pension plan which, for Ontario police officers, is OMERS and is self-funded by the membership.

mariomike said:
For Metro police, the battle for the two-officer car was won by Sid Brown many years ago.

That happened decades ago in the mid-80's when I was still pushing a then-yellow cruiser... and had hair... and a waistline... and wasn't a hunchback,,, and could stay up past 9:00 pm.

Cheers,
Dan.
 

Cloud Cover

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I know of police officers in Ontario that retired 20 years ago on OMERS pensions and have no supplementary health care care, benefits or insurance of any kind provide by or through the plan.
 

CBH99

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Dan M said:
Those officers working in a construction zone are doing a paid-duty on a day off. Some by-laws will stipulate that certain activities require a paid-duty officer be present. They don't take away from the numbers of officers on the street for that day.

The ones doing traffic control at intersections? Probably on duty. And while it's not the same as tracking down murderers, it is a learned skill, at least in my opinion. And if you've ever seen how the idiots clog the intersections in downtown Toronto, you'd want an officer at every intersection, traffic lights or not.

I would agree that there are some jobs that the police should not be doing, and I think that many Chiefs would agree with this, but if the police did not do them then nobody would. It's the same everywhere: If a responsibility is taken away from the police, then you have to create a bureaucracy to deal with that responsibility. In the long run, cost-wise, it's probably cheaper to leave things as they are.

As for pay, while you could pay the police less, always remember that you get what you pay for. Reduced pay would mean less qualified persons applying for the job and being accepted. I agree that it's a fine line.

Cheers,
Dan.


Something to add here, and possibly just my own personal experience.

Prior to my current position with SolGen, I worked traffic for about 2 years.  Some of the most dangerous situations I experienced actually ended up popping up out of nowhere out of the most mundane of traffic duties, including helping to control traffic around accident scenes & intersections.

When I think back to various situations I experienced during my time in uniform, some of the ones that actually pop into my mind as "Wowa, didn't see that coming!" was actually from traffic. 

Fights can be somewhat predictable based on the individual's history, body language, the reason for us interacting, etc etc.  Some domestics can be tedious, but once things have calmed down, can be predictable in their immediate outcome.  (Not necessarily what happens the next day...but predictable as in we have a good handle on the outcome prior to clearing the call.)


Traffic accident control & even some mundane traffic duties?  :eek:  f**k me... 
 

mariomike

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Dan M said:
Paid duties are paid by the person or oganization requesting the officers, not the taxpayer.

Yes, I know that. They are not paid by the taxpayers. They are paid by the organization. Not the City. Did my first Paid Duty in 1972.

Toronto Police
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/paidduty/

Toronto Paramedic Services Paid Duty
https://www.toronto.ca/business-economy/industry-sector-support/events/topic-areas/paramedic-services-event-quote/

Dan M said:
Court time is paid for by the Ministry of the Attorney General, not the police service. Still taxpayers' money, but from a different budget line.

Yes, I know that. I've been subpoenaed to testify as a witness at criminal trials and inquests of calls I have been sent to numerous times.

Dan M said:
Anything post retirement is paid for the the pension plan which, for Ontario police officers, is OMERS and is self-funded by the membership.

Yes, I've been an OMERS member since 1972.

Post-retirement Sick Bank Gratuity ( Nine months salary after 35 years of service ) is paid by The City of Toronto. Not OMERS.

Extended Health Care / Dental / Group Life,  Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ) is also paid by the City of Toronto. Not OMERS.

Dan M said:
That happened decades ago in the mid-80's

1976.

mariomike said:
Surprised no one has yet suggested two-officer cars as a solution to distracted police drivers. Metro went that route in 1976.

There was resistance from the brass to the two-officer car in Toronto for the above reason.
"The TPA's aggressive tactics led the way for other associations and police unions to take similar action (the Montreal Brotherhood, for example). By 1976, police labour unrest had spread across the country. In Sydney, Nova Scotia, officers refused to cross picket lines of a strike with which they sympathized. Metro went on a slowdown over two-man cars. Regina went on an illegal strike to speed up contract negotiations.":
http://www.tpa.ca/TPA/History.aspx?tabId=3#hist

I certainly remember the TPA slowdown.

The two-officer car was not achieved overnight in Metro:

"It took me 10 years to get two men in a car in Metro. We had guys beaten up, stabbed and murdered when they were one in a car."
Sid Brown, President Metro Toronto Police Association
Star, December 20, 1976

Background:
In 1972, Metro Police was made an essential service. They gave up their right to strike in exchange for compulsory binding interest arbitration.
In 1974, the arbitrator ruled in favour of the  Metro Toronto Police Association on the two-man car issue.
Understandably, the higher ups were concerned that two-man cars would "drain" the car count.
This led to the 1976 slowdown by the union. Metro accepted the arbitration ruling.

They had to ante up and hire more officers to maintain the car count.

CloudCover said:
I know of police officers in Ontario that retired 20 years ago on OMERS pensions and have no supplementary health care care, benefits or insurance of any kind provide by or through the plan.

If you are interested in how OMERS works,

The OMERS Supplemental Pension Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics.
https://www.omers.com/OMERS/media/Sponsor-PDF/Supplemental_Plan_Text_-_Restated_-FINAL_(3).pdf

For pay and benefits from their municipality,  you would have to read their collective agreement. That is separate from OMERS.

As I said, if you guys really want to do a deep dive into this, perhaps this would be a better venue for it,

mariomike said:
Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/102608.0.html
5 pages.

Cheers.  :)






 

exspy

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mariomike said:
Extended Health Care / Dental / Group Life,  Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ) is also paid by the City of Toronto. Not OMERS.

The point I was trying to make, and in doing so obviously made an incorrect statement about what OMERS provides, was that retired persons pay for their own benefits. Are you saying that retired Toronto police officers have their medical and insurance benefits paid for by the City and not through personal contribution? Congratulations to them all.

Cheers,
Dan.

 

mariomike

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Dan M said:
The point I was trying to make, and in doing so obviously made an incorrect statement about what OMERS provides, was that retired persons pay for their own benefits. Are you saying that retired Toronto police officers have their medical and insurance benefits paid for by the City and not through personal contribution? Congratulations to them all.

Cheers,
Dan.

For the first ten years of my retirement, my benefits continued same as when I was an employee. Full coverage. Nothing whatsoever changed. The City of Toronto paid 100% of the premiums as they always had.

After ten years of retirement, that came to an end.

The City still pays my life insurance. 100%. Lifetime. But, for a much lesser amount than during my employment, and the first ten years of retirement. 

Accidental Death and Dismemberment Insurance also came to an end.

Now they have a non-cumulative Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ). Payable until age 75. City of Toronto pays 100 %.

My uncle did 30 years with Metro Police. I don't know what they get. But, if we get it, I expect they do too.

Cheers  :)





 
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