Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[Good2Golf]

No but as primary (in the general sense, not pilot training sense) is over, and Operational Training starts, language should focus on the operating language, English in the case of aviation trades. This is the transition from « training » to « Operating ». You focus on pilot training but that’s true for almost every trade…

Why should there be a cessation of support for the French language between training and operations?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why should there be a cessation of support for the French language between training and operations?

It is not a cessation of support. French will always be present in the administration and management of personnel. If someone has a PRB at any point in their training, even past primary training, a PRB should be conducted in the OL of their choice.

Once primary training is complete and focus shifts on employing the weapon platform, if the person will operate mostly in English once they are a TES, their operational training should also be in English. As aviation is mostly conducted in English during operations, operational training should also be conducted in English. At that point, the ability to fly in English should be a PO. And by fly in English, I don’t mean just speaking with ATC.

There is absolutely no reason however to not teach Grob, Harvard II, Hawk Phase III, Jet Ranger, Outlaw and King Air in French as well as English.

 

[Furniture]

It is not a cessation of support. French will always be present in the administration and management of personnel. If someone has a PRB at any point in their training, even past primary training, a PRB should be conducted in the OL of their choice.

Once primary training is complete and focus shifts on employing the weapon platform, if the person will operate mostly in English once they are a TES, their operational training should also be in English. As aviation is mostly conducted in English during operations, operational training should also be conducted in English. At that point, the ability to fly in English should be a PO. And by fly in English, I don’t mean just speaking with ATC.

There is absolutely no reason however to not teach Grob, Harvard II, Hawk Phase III, Jet Ranger, Outlaw and King Air in French as well as English.

Apart from the fact the CAF doesn't teach Anglophones French on a large enough scale to ensure there are bilingual instructors available....

 

[Good2Golf]

It is not a cessation of support. French will always be present in the administration and management of personnel. If someone has a PRB at any point in their training, even past primary training, a PRB should be conducted in the OL of their choice.

Once primary training is complete and focus shifts on employing the weapon platform, if the person will operate mostly in English once they are a TES, their operational training should also be in English. As aviation is mostly conducted in English during operations, operational training should also be conducted in English. At that point, the ability to fly in English should be a PO. And by fly in English, I don’t mean just speaking with ATC.

There is absolutely no reason however to not teach Grob, Harvard II, Hawk Phase III, Jet Ranger, Outlaw and King Air in French as well as English.

Personally, I have no issue at all with conducting ab initio training in both official languages. I’m just curious as to the logic of the break point, where training breaks to unilingual English. Could not even operational training be bilingual? Is the issue money?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Apart from the fact the CAF doesn't teach Anglophones French on a large enough scale to ensure there are bilingual instructors available....

Do you have stats on that? Because almost every instructor that instructed me, up to Operational Training was francophone.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Personally, I have no issue at all with conducting ab initio training in both official languages. I’m just curious as to the logic of the break point, where training breaks to unilingual English. Could not even operational training be bilingual? Is the issue money?

Not about money but about making sure the person can operate in the language they will operate in.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not about money but about making sure the person can operate in the language they will operate in.

Isn’t that sliding backwards?

If 100% of aircrew will without question operate in English, then what logic supports their training in French?

As a thought exercise, how would the F-35 training squadron at Luke AFB address training an RCAF pilot who learned only the French terms for flying? Who addresses the pre-operational top-up training to prepare them for training in English?

 

[Furniture]

Do you have stats on that? Because almost every instructor that instructed me, up to Operational Training was francophone.

I know that my occupation never meets the bilingual requirements for our instructor positions because we don't have enough people who are bilingual. I was instructed by people who had no business being in a school, but we had to send them there because they spoke French.

I dont have my trade's stats in front of me, but i know the number of bilingual anglophones is tiny.

As an aside, does it not raise any red flags that all of your instructors came from a small slice of the Canadian population? If all of your instructors were Maritimers would you not question it?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Isn’t that sliding backwards?

If 100% of aircrew will without question operate in English, then what logic supports their training in French?

As a thought exercise, how would the F-35 training squadron at Luke AFB address training an RCAF pilot who learned only the French terms for flying? Who addresses the pre-operational top-up training to prepare them for training in English.

No. Flight training is still conducted in English-speaking parts of Canada. People still have to interact with ATC in English. Anglophones and Francophones still talk to each other. If anything, it give folks time to have a better understanding of the English language before they are taught in their SOL (and set them up for success on the course).

When people laugh at the fact I pointed out that France teaches in French, I have the same sentiment with regards to Canada and French. It should be a given that in our military, French instruction is a given.

 

[Good2Golf]

No one was laughing at your French teach in French example, but is was hoping you would have provided more context for the very specialized and unique example you were referring to.

Re: the thought exercise on F-35 FCP pre-conversion preparation of a French-trained an initial pilot - still interested in your thoughts as to how the pre-conversion French to English training-ready pilot would be trained at/before Luke?

 

[SupersonicMax]

No one was laughing at your French teach in French example, but is was hoping you would have provided more context for the very specialized and unique example you were referring to.

Re: the thought exercise on F-35 FCP pre-conversion preparation of a French-trained an initial pilot - still interested in your thoughts as to how the pre-conversion French to English training-ready pilot would be trained at/before Luke?

We don’t have any pre-training prep for Phase I right now. Why would it be different for Luke?

 

[SupersonicMax]

No one was laughing at your French teach in French example

Really?

 

[Good2Golf]

We don’t have any pre-training prep for Phase I right now. Why would it be different for Luke?

Because of the situation I postulated, a fully French-trained pilot having received no aviation training in English up to that point. How would they know what the relative terms were in English on FCP if they only knew French terminology?

Really?

View attachment 78679

Fair enough, that was a laughing emoji, but the intent was meant to be “oh, come now” vice ridicule. I do value your input, but I also think it fair to be able to question inconsistencies in logic during a dabate, no?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Because of the situation I postulated, a fully French-trained pilot having received no aviation training in English up to that point. How would they know what the relative terms were in English on FCP if they only knew French terminology?

They would have been immersed in English and have to speak English with ATC. If a BBB French student can do it now, I don’t see how it would be an issue for someone with 1-2 years more exposure.

 

[Good2Golf]

They would have been immersed in English and have to speak English with ATC. If a BBB French student can do it now, I don’t see how it would be an issue for someone with 1-2 years more exposure.

Roger, but still by the books an explicit step to ensure that the candidate would be suitably prepared for the FCP POs and EOs. It would require being addressed within the TP, don’t you think? (To ensure they were ready to undergo the FCP syllabus)

 

[PuckChaser]

Do you have stats on that? Because almost every instructor that instructed me, up to Operational Training was francophone.

3300 Sigs NCM positions have 1-2 year long French course slots per year across the entire CAF.

I've been asking for French for years. Have been told to do it on my own time while balancing 100% of the work with a 65% PML staffing, my wife and my 3 kids in sports. Oh and I should be doing university courses too.

We need bilingualism, but right now it's not a 2 way street. Francophones have a signifcant advantage in SCRIT points and it's reflected in a disproportionate number being in senior positions because of those SCRITs.

 

[Rifleman62]

I doubt there are any Quebecois speakers at the Trg Wing at Luke. Luke has been training F-35 Pilots and Maintainers for several years from all countries that use the aircraft in English.

I was a Pan Am 552 Flight Engineer waiting for start clearance in Munich, Germany. I was listening to the radio since I was the junior crew member. This was the conversation I overheard (I don't recall call signs any longer): Lufthansa: (In German) "Ground, what is our start clearance time?" Ground: (In English) "If you want an answer you must speak English." Lufthansa: (In English) "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"

Beautiful English Accent: (before ground could answer) "Because you lost the bloody war!"

source: German Air Control Joke - Ethnic Archive Jokes

 

[Brad Sallows]

Unless language fluency is different from other areas of knowledge and skills, it will diminish with lack of use. If that is so, "train to need" should apply.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

3300 Sigs NCM positions have 1-2 year long French course slots per year across the entire CAF.

I've been asking for French for years. Have been told to do it on my own time while balancing 100% of the work with a 65% PML staffing, my wife and my 3 kids in sports. Oh and I should be doing university courses too.

We need bilingualism, but right now it's not a 2 way street. Francophones have a signifcant advantage in SCRIT points and it's reflected in a disproportionate number being in senior positions because of those SCRITs.

I am aware that bilingualism SCRIT points are awarded to Reserve Naval Officers, despite those officers being officially unable to access any CAF language training or testing. Tell me again how a Naval reservist in Calgary, Thunder Bay or Regina gets a french course? Or what practical purpose it serves?

That sounds like a slam dunk policy grievance to me.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I am aware that bilingualism SCRIT points are awarded to Reserve Naval Officers, despite those officers being officially unable to access any CAF language training or testing. Tell me again how a Naval reservist in Calgary, Thunder Bay or Regina gets a french course? Or what practical purpose it serves?

That sounds like a slam dunk policy grievance to me.

"Did you sign up for ALLIES or pursue other self study options? No? Sounds like you're blaming the CAF for something you should have taken on your own initiative. Do better."

-my CoC when I asked for French Language training...