Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[YZT580]

No not at all, but it helps reduce the need to bring things in. As they can expand the demand to import goods from the south decreases.


110%. Any work to strengthen the infrastructure and strengthen the communities up there needs input from those communities.

More roads and rails will help as they allow more potential providers of services (be it transport, foodstuffs, POL etc.). Which will reduce the prices that the community needs to pay.

Actually, an underground hydroponic farm would produce far more and be far cheaper to heat and maintain.

 

[Kirkhill]

What is the viability and impacts of greenhouse farming over the permafrost when the farm is to be large enough to sustain an Arctic hamlet of 1000 people? How do you anticipate sustaining skilled tradespersons and workshops in remote arctic villages that are smaller than what could sustain a similar capability in the south? Do you think the locals will embrace your plan to re-engineer their society?

Judging from the articles I was reading about the dietary requirements of the Inuit they wouldn't need much of a greenhouse.

Greenhouses convert sunlight, water and CO2 into carbohydrates.

The arctic qualifies as a desert. There is a lack of water. Equally there is a lack of CO2 due to a lack of biomass excreting CO2. A greenhouse would have to burn fossil fuels to create CO2. Most importantly there is a distinct lack of sunlight. So more fossil fuels would be required to make the sunlight replacer. These are precisely the reasons that carbohydrates are lacking in the arctic.

They are also the reasons why the Inuit have evolved to survive without carbohydrates. They survive on the fat from the animal life that exists up north. Peculiarly they, and you can starve on a steady diet of steaks unless the steaks are really well marbled.

They also need to consume the fat soluble vitamins A and D because they can't get A from vegetables (as noted they don't grow there) and the can't make D from sunlight because, (again as noted) sunlight doesn't exist through much of the year and the rest of the time they are covered from head to toe against the cold, preventing their skin from accessing the sunlight available. The levels of vitamins A and D that the Inuit regularly consume in livers would cause severe harm to a southerner.

...

The research seems to suggest that a healthy Inuit has much in common with the ideal Prussian staff officer - fat and expending as little energy as possible to conserve that fat for as long as possible.

...

Better than greenhouses would be farms for seals, for fish, for oysters, for kelp and for caribou. Can ptarmigan be domesticated? Probably. There is an entire Scottish industry built around shooting grouse and pheasants.

 

[Kirkhill]

From a 1910 journal....

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1636543?seq=1

[N. S. VOL. XXXI. No. 784

FUR-SEALS DOMESTICATED
UNTIL a few months ago, no authenti
stance was on record of Alaska fur-seals.
(Callorhinus alascanus) being fed in captivity
and living for any length of time in other
than their natural environment. Apocryphal
tales exist on the Pribilof Islands of fur-seals
having been tamed and living thereafter in
the habitations of human beings on the is-
lands. In the early seventies, the Alaska Com-
mercial Company placed two immature live,
fur-seals, exact ages not definitely known, in
Woodward's Gardens in San Francisco, which
were confined within an enclosure, and which
died of starvation after several months' incar-
ceration, having eaten nothing during the
interval.
This experiment at Woodward's Gardens;
fixed the idea that fur-seals would not feed in
captivity. In view of this belief, it is specially
interesting to announce that Mr. Judson
Thurber, boatswain on the revenue cutter
Bear, has succeeded in inducing two fur-
seal pups to take food voluntarily and in
keeping them alive and well in captivity from
October 9, 1909, until the present time. A
brief account of this successful experiment is
given.
The effort had its inception in the desire of
FUR-SEALS DOMESTICATED
UNTIL a few months ago, no authenti
stance was on record of Alaska fur-seals.
(Callorhinus alascanus) being fed in captivity
and living for any length of time in other
than their natural environment. Apocryphal
tales exist on the Pribilof Islands of fur-seals
having been tamed and living thereafter in
the habitations of human beings on the is-
lands. In the early seventies, the Alaska Com-
mercial Company placed two immature live,
fur-seals, exact ages not definitely known, in
Woodward's Gardens in San Francisco, which
were confined within an enclosure, and which
died of starvation after several months' incar-
ceration, having eaten nothing during the
interval.
This experiment at Woodward's Gardens;
fixed the idea that fur-seals would not feed in
captivity. In view of this belief, it is specially
interesting to announce that Mr. Judson
Thurber, boatswain on the revenue cutter
Bear, has succeeded in inducing two fur-
seal pups to take food voluntarily and in
keeping them alive and well in captivity from
October 9, 1909, until the present time. A
brief account of this successful experiment is
given.
The effort had its inception in the desire of
3434 SCIENCESCIENCE


Dr. Fox, the surgeon of the Bear, to ascertain
whether the fur-seal carried ectoparasites.
For this purpose, a starving fur-seal pup,
whose mother had been killed while feeding
at sea, was given to the Bear's surgeon, who
was unable to discover any of the parasites
mentioned. The half-starved little animal was
then taken by Mr. Judson Thurber, the Bear's
boatswain, who desired to attempt feeding the
pup by artificial means. He was so far success-
ful in his efforts that he induced this pup to eat
dried fish from his hand and kept it in good
condition for three weeks, when it died in con-
vilsions. Desiring to carry the experiment
farther, Mr. Thurber obtained two well-con-
ditioned fur-seal pups, a male and a female,
from the Pribilof Islands on October 9, which
he induced to eat regularly and even greedily,
and which now are fat and in prime condition.
The chronology of the experiment follows:
October 9.-Two pups delivered to Revenue
Cutter Manning.
October 14.-Pups delivered by Manning to
Bear--did not eat between these dates.
October 19.-Female began eating solid fish.
October 23.-Male chloroformed and frenum
severed.
October 28.-Male induced to swallow a
little dried salmon.
November 2.-Male began to eat at will,
and on that date ate with evident relish nine
small fresh herring at Seattle.
Mr. Thurber began his experiments by
forcing condensed milk down the throat of
the starving pup first obtained. In doing so
he discovered that the animal experienced
difficulty in swallowing and attributed this to
the fact that the movement of the tongue was
restricted by the frenum. This Mr. Thurber
at once severed forcibly with his finger, upon
which the pup soon after began to eat fish.
After the death of this pup and his securing
the two others, the same impediment to the
free movement of the tongue was noted.
The female, it is stated, succeeded in breaking
the frenum by her own efforts and a few days
afterwards began to eat. The male being un-
able to do this, on October 23 he was chloro-
formed and his frenum cut. Immediately
after this, the male began to protrude its
tongue and to nose the fish in its enclosure, but
did not eat, possibly because no suitable food
was obtainable at sea. Upon the arrival of the
vessel at Seattle small herring were fed to the
pups and both animals ate greedily.
The female was by far the easier to feed,
was without food for only ten days and has
been in good condition during the whole of
her captivity. The male, however, was vir-
tually without food from October 9 until No-
vember 2, a period of twenty-four days, dur-
ing which time he grew thin rapidly and was
a pitiful sight beside his fat and sleek-looking
companion. Since he began feeding, how-
ever, he fattened daily and now is as well-con-
ditioned as the female.
The pups have been kept on board the Bear
in a box six feet long by three feet wide. At
first this box was filled with sea-water two or
three times a day. Now the box is kept filled'
with water during the day and is emptied at
night. They manifest no desire to leave the
water during the day and frequently sleep on
the surface. In the morning, when the box is
filled with water, they show every indication
of delight. They are very tame and, when not
in the water, will allow any one to fondle them
unless a quick motion is made, when they
will snap, but even then will bite gently if the
hand is allowed to remain quiet.
In conducting this experiment Mr. Thurber
used great patience and no little skill. He be-
gan feeding the animals by holding their
mouths open and pouring into their mouths
evaporated cream mixed with bits of fish.
The pups resented this, but small quantities
went into their stomachs. Later, Mr. Thurber
would tie bits of fish on the end of a string
and tease the animals until they would snap at
the fish. Then he would manage to poke the
fish down the seals throat and cut off the
string. In this way the female was taught
the taste for fish, after which she soon learned
to eat voluntarily.
These animals, the only captives of their
kind in the world, are now thriving on board
the Bear and it is hoped soon to bring them
to Washington, where they will be placed in
the large pool at the Bureau of Fisheries. Mr.
Thurber is entitled to all credit for his suc-
cess in demonstrating the practicability of a
measure hitherto believed impossible of ac-
complishment. The greater portion of the
foregoing data was furnished by Captain E.
P. Bertholf of the Bear.
The result of Mr. Thurber's experiment is
to establish the possibility of feeding fur-
seals in captivity. Incidential to this is the
interesting disclosure seemingly demonstrated
by three examples under observation that the
frenum in the fur-seal young at first opposes
an obstacle to their taking solid food, and
that its rupture is a prerequisite to their feed-
ing on other substances than mother's milk.
Should this be proved by subsequent experi-
mentation, the knowledge may open up a wide
field of endeavor, having as its object the
saving from death of those fur-seal nurslings
whose mothers have been killed at sea, and
which now die a lingering death from starva-
tion.
BARTON W. EVERMANN,
WALTER I. LEMBKEY
BUREAU OF FISHERIES,
WASHINGTON, D. C.

I wonder what impact PETA and Greenpeace have had on the health of the Inuit community.

 

[lenaitch]

Judging from the articles I was reading about the dietary requirements of the Inuit they wouldn't need much of a greenhouse.

Greenhouses convert sunlight, water and CO2 into carbohydrates.

The arctic qualifies as a desert. There is a lack of water. Equally there is a lack of CO2 due to a lack of biomass excreting CO2. A greenhouse would have to burn fossil fuels to create CO2. Most importantly there is a distinct lack of sunlight. So more fossil fuels would be required to make the sunlight replacer. These are precisely the reasons that carbohydrates are lacking in the arctic.

They are also the reasons why the Inuit have evolved to survive without carbohydrates. They survive on the fat from the animal life that exists up north. Peculiarly they, and you can starve on a steady diet of steaks unless the steaks are really well marbled.

They also need to consume the fat soluble vitamins A and D because they can't get A from vegetables (as noted they don't grow there) and the can't make D from sunlight because, (again as noted) sunlight doesn't exist through much of the year and the rest of the time they are covered from head to toe against the cold, preventing their skin from accessing the sunlight available. The levels of vitamins A and D that the Inuit regularly consume in livers would cause severe harm to a southerner.

...

The research seems to suggest that a healthy Inuit has much in common with the ideal Prussian staff officer - fat and expending as little energy as possible to conserve that fat for as long as possible.

...

Better than greenhouses would be farms for seals, for fish, for oysters, for kelp and for caribou. Can ptarmigan be domesticated? Probably. There is an entire Scottish industry built around shooting grouse and pheasants.

Penning (farming), husbanding or domesticating the resources of the land or the sea I think would be quite a cultural shift for the Inuit.

 

[Czech_pivo]

and god forbid an enemy decides to keep us busy by taking out the fuel storage at a few communities up there. That would tie up all of our resources to sustain them in the short term.

Do we have any surface to air systems available to defend said storage facilities?

 

[Kirkhill]

Penning (farming), husbanding or domesticating the resources of the land or the sea I think would be quite a cultural shift for the Inuit.

One that they would have to come on their own terms. Right enough.

On the other hand it mirrors a passage many others in their circumstances have made. And it would be easier to learn how to be a pastoralist/hunter than reconstruct their physiology.

And I am not the first southerner to suggest something of the sort.

The Great Canadian Reindeer Project - Canada's History

The Inuvialuit of the Mackenzie Delta faced desperation. Caribou had dwindled. But Alaskan reindeer held the promise of plenty. And so, in 1929, a few men and a huge herd began the long and arduous trek east. It was more than they bargained for.

www.canadashistory.ca

Nothing works unless the locals buy in, or better yet, find their own solutions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Do we have any surface to air systems available to defend said storage facilities?

 

[OldSolduer]

From a 1910 journal....

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1636543?seq=1

I wonder what impact PETA and Greenpeace have had on the health of the Inuit community.

who would care? They'd be dead in a week trying to wean the locals off meat and fat!

 

[Kirkhill]

They adapted pretty well to the SMLE and Skidoos. Add a SAM?

 

[GR66]

Judging from the articles I was reading about the dietary requirements of the Inuit they wouldn't need much of a greenhouse.

Greenhouses convert sunlight, water and CO2 into carbohydrates.

The arctic qualifies as a desert. There is a lack of water. Equally there is a lack of CO2 due to a lack of biomass excreting CO2. A greenhouse would have to burn fossil fuels to create CO2. Most importantly there is a distinct lack of sunlight. So more fossil fuels would be required to make the sunlight replacer. These are precisely the reasons that carbohydrates are lacking in the arctic.

They are also the reasons why the Inuit have evolved to survive without carbohydrates. They survive on the fat from the animal life that exists up north. Peculiarly they, and you can starve on a steady diet of steaks unless the steaks are really well marbled.

They also need to consume the fat soluble vitamins A and D because they can't get A from vegetables (as noted they don't grow there) and the can't make D from sunlight because, (again as noted) sunlight doesn't exist through much of the year and the rest of the time they are covered from head to toe against the cold, preventing their skin from accessing the sunlight available. The levels of vitamins A and D that the Inuit regularly consume in livers would cause severe harm to a southerner.

...

The research seems to suggest that a healthy Inuit has much in common with the ideal Prussian staff officer - fat and expending as little energy as possible to conserve that fat for as long as possible.

...

Better than greenhouses would be farms for seals, for fish, for oysters, for kelp and for caribou. Can ptarmigan be domesticated? Probably. There is an entire Scottish industry built around shooting grouse and pheasants.

Curious....how many young Inuit want to eat the same diet as their grandparents did? Might want to ask that question before you go and start dictating their menu choices. Genetic research is one thing...personal choice is another.

 

[KevinB]

Curious....how many young Inuit want to eat the same diet as their grandparents did? Might want to ask that question before you go and start dictating their menu choices. Genetic research is one thing...personal choice is another.

You also can’t change a society’s diet overnight without some significant health consequences.

Actually, an underground hydroponic farm would produce far more and be far cheaper to heat and maintain.

Not sure that’s viable in the high north.

 

[lenaitch]

One that they would have to come on their own terms. Right enough.

On the other hand it mirrors a passage many others in their circumstances have made. And it would be easier to learn how to be a pastoralist/hunter than reconstruct their physiology.

And I am not the first southerner to suggest something of the sort.

The Great Canadian Reindeer Project - Canada's History

The Inuvialuit of the Mackenzie Delta faced desperation. Caribou had dwindled. But Alaskan reindeer held the promise of plenty. And so, in 1929, a few men and a huge herd began the long and arduous trek east. It was more than they bargained for.

www.canadashistory.ca

Nothing works unless the locals buy in, or better yet, find their own solutions.

Evolutionary biology is likely more complex than a bunch of southern dudes can comprehend. If were as simple as penning/domesticating/raising game food, you would think they would have figured it out over the past few millennia rather that chasing it around. Once you corral something, you are responsible for feeding it and not having become prey for whatever is above it in the food chain. You also start to impact its own genetic diversity. Most of their games species are migratory; following the food, running ahead of the environment, etc. Where would they likely find a single, fixed place that had enough lichen and ground flora to support a caribou herd year after year?

To this day, those who still 'go out on the land' travel to where the fish, seals, caribou, etc. are - at that time - then return home, and they did that long before we encouraged them to gather into fixed communities.

 

[lenaitch]

Not sure that’s viable in the high north.

Indeed. Not a lot of topsoil that I'm aware of. Rock and gravel.

 

[Kirkhill]

The one thing we agree on is that it is a local problem that demands a local solution. And if Canada wants to keep the locals on side then it needs to support them in their local choices.

The problem becomes more complicated when southerners move north.

 

[YZT580]

Indeed. Not a lot of topsoil that I'm aware of. Rock and gravel.

rock is good. In fact, hard rock mining is great. Saves on support materiel. The difficulty is in insulating the shaft so that the permafrost is protected. Below that it is hard rock mining. If they can do it in the hole in YB they can do it in the far north.

 

[Kirkhill]

rock is good. In fact, hard rock mining is great. Saves on support materiel. The difficulty is in insulating the shaft so that the permafrost is protected. Below that it is hard rock mining. If they can do it in the hole in YB they can do it in the far north.

Especially if they can extract minerals from those holes and then convert the shafts into hydroponic farms, or even dwellings.

Coober Pedy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

rock is good. In fact, hard rock mining is great. Saves on support materiel. The difficulty is in insulating the shaft so that the permafrost is protected. Below that it is hard rock mining. If they can do it in the hole in YB they can do it in the far north.

Not sure if there any hard rock mines up there, as I recall the mines that exist are open pit, except some in the Yukon?

 

[Kirkhill]

This article is well worth reading in its entirety.

https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/as-2023-0038

“We call it soul food”: Inuit women and the role of country food in health and well-being in Nunavut​

Abstract​

Indigenous knowledge is central to understanding environment and health sciences in the Arctic, yet limited research in these fields has explored the human–animal–environment interface from the unique perspectives of Inuit women. Using a community-led, Inuit-centred research approach, we characterized the use and meaning of country food in the context of community well-being for Inuit women in Nunavut, Canada. In-depth conversational interviews and focus groups (n = 16) were held with Inuit women (n = 10) who are knowledge holders in the Qikiqtani region that hold decades of country food knowledge. Data were analyzed using thematic analysis and constant comparative methods. Inuit women described country food in the context of (1) well-being, connection, and identity, (2) hunger, craving, and healing, (3) food security and nourishment, and (4) change and adaptation. Inuit women described a wide range of country food as central to physical and mental health, food security, identity, culture, healing and medicine. Adaptive strategies were discussed, such as eating more fish when caribou were scarce. This research highlights the critical role of country food for health and well-being for Inuit women and shares knowledge and perspective that is relevant to wildlife and environment researchers, public health practitioners, policy makers, and others interested in advancing health, well-being, and food sovereignty in Inuit communities.

Introduction​

Inuit country food (i.e., locally harvested animals and plants from the sea, sky, and land) is a critical contributor to nutrient intake, physical health, and disease prevention for Inuit communities (Kuhnlein et al. 2004; El Hayek et al. 2010; Jamieson et al. 2012; Sheehy et al. 2015; Caughey et al. 2021; Little et al. 2021). Dietary studies and nutrient composition analysis have supported vital knowledge generation and contributed to understanding the importance of country food for Inuit nutrition, health, food security, and mental health outcomes (Lucas et al. 2009; Egeland et al. 2010, 2011; Johnson-Down and Egeland 2010; Kunhlein and Humphries 2017; Skogli et al. 2017; Little et al. 2021; Warltier et al. 2021). While these studies focus on the quantifiable health benefits of country food, less health research has engaged Inuit knowledge and understanding of these phenomenon or explored Inuit perspectives on the role of country food for health and well-being (Rapinski et al. 2018; Caughey et al. 2021; Little et al. 2021).
At the same time, Indigenous Peoples’ food systems are deeply linked to the environment (Lemke and Delormier 2017) and, within Inuit Nunangat, Inuit knowledge is central to understanding health, environment, and climate sciences (Rapinski et al. 2018; Huntington et al. 2019; Martinez-Levasseur et al. 2020; Harper et al. 2021). Researchers in public health and medicine are increasingly engaging with qualitative inquiry using methodologies and methods that have historically been considered humanities-based, such as storytelling (Weiss 2001; de Leeuw et al. 2017). Qualitative methods have been applied successfully and rigorously in multiple health disciplines (Guyot et al. 2006; Pilnick and Swift 2011; Burdine et al. 2021), and have advanced understanding of health and well-being within Inuit communities across Canada (Bird et al. 2008, 2009; Harper et al. 2012; Cunsolo Willox et al. 2013a; Egeland et al. 2013; Cunsolo Willox et. al. 2013b).

....

“A lot of people say it (country food) is soul food. We call it soul food, good for our soul and our body.” Another knowledge holder shared that “when you have fish, caribou, seal in your freezer, it is the greatest feeling on Earth. You feel very rich”. Women described the happiness associated with the common practice of eating country food with others, for example, the profound joy of being involved in a gathering of women eating beluga whale together:

That's the best experience I ever had in my whole life, when the beluga is caught. The tail part is for women. You can ask other women to eat with you. I love it when we have a whale tail party, just to experience all that noise, the happy noise that they are talking and eating beluga tail together, it's like you can hear happy sounds. Eating beluga tail together, everyone is excited, everything being cut and shared.

This sentiment was echoed by others who described the connection between sharing country food and positive feelings, describing how country food is “stabilizing” and “boosts our system”. One woman described the role of country food in the context of supporting mental health and healing:

The whole eating together thing is so good for our mental health too… just the fact of having country food together without being forced to do anything else, that in itself will do the healing part… because it connects you back to your core, from where you came from.

The importance of country food sharing and connection within the family was also considered by women, including the importance of introducing country food at a young age: “We were always encouraged to start when they're babies for them to start learning that taste, that's where you start to give them small bits, and children can enjoy country food” adding that country food can be an “acquired taste”. The importance of eating together and the positive aspects of eating country food with children were commonly discussed. Women related their own experiences as children growing up, observing that “we grow up eating with other people”, and explaining that country food “was such a natural part of our diet growing up, so I crave it”. Another community leader summarized the significance of growing up with country food: “It's an everyday thing, everyday thing! You need it… it's good for your body, your mind, your health. And when you grow up with country food, you constantly need it”.

....

One woman discussed population growth in her community: “We want to eat country food, but the lack of it, there are so many people in the community now, there is sometimes less sharing outside of family members, because there is not enough.” Events related to the COVID-19 lockdown in Nunavut were discussed by several women in relation to country food availability; significant financial assistance was provided to support community country food access in Nunavut for 2 years during the COVID-19 pandemic, but financial assistance stopped several months before this research occurred. One woman lamented:

During COVID, we had plenty of country food because there was money for hunters to catch it and distribute it to the community. But that [money] is not around anymore, the money ran out, so country food is not as available now as when COVID was around. That was the good part about it [COVID].

Women also identified changing country food practices they had adapted to and embraced throughout their life. For instance, one grandmother discussed generational difference in food preparation, explaining, “for me, cooking country food naturally, just boiling it is the healthiest way for me, and that's all I need…. Younger generations are more prone to adding many (other ingredients) to it”. Women described exploring opportunities to try country food that was new to them, such as one person who received muskox for the first time:

I just boiled it. It was very, very tough because I had never cooked muskox before. I didn't think it would take as long as a polar bear or a walrus, but it was still good. Just like caribou I dipped it in fermented oil, and I got my needs met right then and there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

These are cute, but they are not going to make an agrarian independent community.


Repeating a wrong is not going to give us community buy-in. “White man from the south knows what’s best for you” will probably not help strengthen the link to Canada.

If you can reduce food dependency on the south by 15%, that is a huge win. It saves a crapload of money for everyone and it gives purpose to a number of individuals in each community. That it turns strengthens that community. Building better and more ports, speed up the seasonal sealift and reduces costs. also provides jobs as well. There is no "One solution". This is going to take a large number of small solutions combining to make life better. I am a big proponent of SMR's and eventually hope to see a bunch in the North providing cheap, clean and abundant energy, reducing the fuel transportation needs as well.

 

[Kirkhill]

In terms of food security - it is probably easier to transfer the skills necessary to raise caribou and ptarmigan so that the locals can eat the meat their bodies are designed for than it is to teach their bodies how to eat Coco Puffs.

Importing, or even cultivating, carbohydrates that the caribou, the geese and ptarmigan, or even some fish can exploit and convert into food that the Inuit need, to my mind, makes a lot of sense.

There is a lot of literature and practical knowledge available on domesticating animals like elk, reindeer, deer generally, geese, ducks, salmon and sheep. The musk ox is just a really big sheep.