Pay Increase

[404SqnAVSTeach]

IMHO, it's not too surprising that people are amusing themselves by speculating, in the complete absence of any official info for almost two months now!  It's just human nature; why not let them have a little fun in the meantime if they're so inclined?  I think everyone recognizes it for what it is:  just rumour and speculation.  In the meantime, it's a relatively harmless outlet for the questions that most of us have been asking since last April.

What made things worse this time is that famous speadsheet.  I bet the leadership is having a big laugh.  Probably waiting for the troops to calm down before annoucing anything. 

 

[bridges]

Yeah, that spreadsheet....joke's on us all, eh?   

Well, I think that if there were going to be a significant delay, they would have sent another CFG to advise us of that - so perhaps no news is good news right now.  I wouldn't be surprised if the CFG were ready & awaiting signature as we speak. 

Well, back to work - thanks for the coffee break chat!

 

[AmmoTech90]

What I find very Dilbertesq about the whole spreadsheet fiasco was that widespread emails were sent instructing pers to destroy all copies of the spreadsheet.  These destruction emails had the spreadsheet attached... ??? :

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

What I find very Dilbertesq about the whole spreadsheet fiasco was that widespread emails were sent instructing pers to destroy all copies of the spreadsheet.  These destruction emails had the spreadsheet attached... ??? :

That is hillarious... I missed that email.  That speadsheet is still going around. :  I got it yesterday(again), except that the original message is missing, so now people probably will take this as face value.  email is awsome, but it has its drawbacks also.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Someone emailed me this at work today... Thought it was funny due to the long....drawn out debate regarding the pay raise:

Pay Increase

Need power point to view.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Ok everyone is going to yell at me for this but i'm going to say it anyhow. I am not in the military but I am a tax payer and i would love to see the military get more funding before i see them get a pay raise. There are not many jobs you can go into without any post secondary education and make the kind of money our soldiers make. My father made less than a private does now a days when he retired ten years ago(when he was a private my mother made more working in a hospital cafeteria). Yes , there has been inflation in the price of gas, food etc.But being in the military isnt sapposed to be about the pay. I know plenty of non military families who get by on a lot less than military families do and they make out just fine. I think definately we should be spending more on the actual funding of the military before a pay increase.

But in today's military it is not what it used to be.  PMQ are run down and shacks aren't what they should be.  Most bases are near large urban centers where rent is much more expensive.  And even when they move a base to a smaller community that community raises its prices to take adavantage of the new cash flow.  I agree we need more and better equipment but we have to keep the guys who are using it happy as well.

 

[garb811]

Camochick, while I also don't disagree with the sentiment:

I guess it depends on what you consider to be a post-secondary education.  My estimate is by the time the average Infanteer makes it through battle school they've done more man-hours of work to get there than someone who's done a two year college course.  Throw in all of the courses we take over the course of a career and you're quite likely up to about 3 complete calendar years of dedicated â Å“school basedâ ? training by the 20 year mark which is more than what is required to get most undergrad degrees.  These time-lines are guesstimates only, I stand to be corrected if anyone wants to do the actual math.

Some other things to consider:

We are liable for recall 24/7, 365 days a year.  Do this for a civilian employee and you're on overtime, big time overtime.  For most this isn't a huge issue, but if you're in the Immediate Reaction Unit for example, this can have a huge impact on what you can do on your free time for pretty significant stretches.  Through in sundry unit and base duties and suddenly your â Å“free timeâ ? is significantly less free.

We get paid the same whether we work 7.5 hours a day or 24 hours a day.  Having said that, we'd also get the same $$ if we worked 2 hours a day...

Even on Annual leave we must provide contact information where we can be reached.  We can be ordered back from said leave.  If we are on Annual leave and we become aware of a â Å“National Emergencyâ ? it is our duty to immediately contact the nearest Unit, Base or if we're out of the country, Embassy, to report our location and get instructions on how to proceed.

If we wish to proceed outside of our place of duty (usually defined as a circle with a radius of 50 km or so from your place of duty) we technically require a leave pass, even if it is during the evening or weekend.

We do have allowances to compensate us for unusual conditions of work (Sea Pay, Field Operations Allowance, Aircrew etc), but they generally work out to be less than $1 per hour and this money is taxed.  Ironically we would make more money going on course and living in barracks...oh, and for some reason this money isn't taxed, probably because every other government employee gets it as well when they go away on business.

Even when not on tour we get sent all over the country on individual and/or unit tasks for months at a time.  As it is only TD, you are not entitled to bring your family.  Although there are provisions to get back to visit, it's just not the same as you being there, particularly from your spouse's viewpoint when s/he is dealing with all of the family issues when you're on the other side of the country.

We get called out when the river breaks its banks, the Ice Storm hits, the mountainsides erupt into flame, Toronto gets a bit of snow or a hurricane hits and we get the honour and privilege of assisting civilian workers who are quite likely at triple time.  Lets not mention the New York Power workers who got $2000 vacations to Quebec in appreciation...on top of their pay.  In case you're wondering, I seem to recall us Army guys got FOA for helping out, which I believe was about $11/day at that time.

I've been posted 10 times in 19 years, mostly to places I wouldn't dream of living on my own but fortunately I haven' t had a say in the matter as each and every one of those has been a fantastic experience.   But how do you compensate someone for moving your family away from their family and friends?  What about the effect of moving children from one province's education system to another to another?  What about those cases where a Franco family gets posted to Vancouver or an Anglo family goes to Valcartier and the spouse is unilingual?  What about the effect upon a spouse who is trying to build a career, unless they are lucky enough to get into the Public Service?

Perhaps most importantly we face â Å“ultimate liabilityâ ?.  No one else in Canada can be ordered into a situation where the likely outcome is death and be liable to judicial punishment for refusing to obey that order.  This includes civilian fire fighters and police.  Although most Canadians believe the Death penalty was abolished in 1976, it might be interesting to know that it was kept on the books in the NDA until 1998 for offences such as â Å“failure to diligently carry out an operation of war, when so orderedâ ? and â Å“cowardice before the enemyâ ?.

I'm sure there are a gazzilion other issues but I'm sure you get my drift.

Having said all that, if it wasn't for the family, I'd do this for free R&Q and enough money to pay for a car and a new computer every two years because you're right, I didn't join for the money.

 

[zero-five-two]

Extremely well-put

 

[camochick]

Ok, I do have to say you have some valid points in your post  MP 00161 .I hope no one thought i was refering to military people as uneducated, when i talked about post secondary, i just meant its a good paying job without having to attend post secondary. The thing is, that even though you are getting an education through your military training, you are not paying for that education, and you are being paid to get the training. I think many students, if not all ,would love to have free education and get paid to do it.
  My biggest problem with your whole argument is that you signed up for this. You knew you would be on call, that you would have to live in places you might not want to, that you would have to go to places where you could be injured or killed.
  I dont disagree with the fact that our soldiers should be paid for their hard work. I just think that everyone bitches and moans about funding for the military and yet they all want a pay raise. The money could be better spent on the equipment and such.
  I guess i see lots of civilian families doing well for themselves on the same money military families have and i can't figure out what makes them any different.
  I think that there has to be a line when it comes to military pay, you can't pay too little or people won't join and you can't pay too much or else you get too many people joining for the money.

 

[big_johnson1]

Maybe we should stop wasting the money we already get before we ask for more (the military I mean).. And I don't mean wasting on training or bullets or any of that, I mean the politics that drain us dry. It's unfortunate that at the highest levels of government it's no longer business but politics.

 

[KevinB]

Camochick,

You missed the point - myself and most other Infanteers would prefer to have the money (that will get taken out of the fixed budget$) into trg rather than salary - most of us joined to do the job not sit back play cards or otherwise find some synonym for sticking one finger in their arse.  However this is not a CF pay raise but a Civil Service one - one that we are slaved to since we don't have any bargaining ability.

I dont see anyone at work as here for the $, especially when you factor the conditions we work in...
 Its the buddies and the job, nothign more.

 

[camochick]

I can't even get on the topic of the civil service without wanting to freak out. They are the most overpaid , underworked bunch of babies I have ever seen.  >
  I know that when they get a raise you get one too and I am not saying that people are only in the military for the money. I am sure there are a few but most of the people I have encountered have all been in it for the job and the friends like you have said.
  I guess in my opinion military personnel are paid adequately and maybe its not the pay but their lifestyles that make their financial situations hard for themselves ( I am not implying this for everyone) I dunno.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Camochick, I am thinking maybee your perception of the current state of members of the CF is a little off.Try looking at the military members as individuals and not a group.These days a single private fresh out of high school with no bills does make it appear that with little education,he/she has a heck of alot of drinking money.But in the same recruiting sweep, a 38 year old father of four with a doctorate, gets in and tries to make ends meet.I can honestly say I have yet to meet anyone who joined for the money.Just my 2 cents.

 

[54/102 CEF]

So - the info gathering on htis thread is very Rear Echelon. When and how much?

Get me some news - or invent some!

Signed
Director General Public Affairs  8)

 

[Inch]

camochick, this isn't a payraise per se, it's a cost of living raise. It matches inflation and whatever the civil servants get. If we didn't get them, you'd be hard pressed to even live since inflation is in the neighbourhood of 1% a year. We haven't had a cost of living increase since 2001 IIRC, thus inflation has gone up about 4%, probably more, and we've made the same money, so as far as purchasing power goes, we make less now than we did 4 years ago. Everybody gets cost of living increases, even minimum wage burger flippers, how do you think minimum wage got to $7/hr?

Also, that money for the raise doesn't come out of the military budget, it's added to our budget to cover the raise. So even with the pay raise, we're not getting any less funding for beans or bullets. They're not related.

 

[jc5778]

Camochick, while I also don't disagree with the sentiment:

I guess it depends on what you consider to be a post-secondary education.  My estimate is by the time the average Infanteer makes it through battle school they've done more man-hours of work to get there than someone who's done a two year college course.  Throw in all of the courses we take over the course of a career and you're quite likely up to about 3 complete calendar years of dedicated â Å“school basedâ ? training by the 20 year mark which is more than what is required to get most undergrad degrees.  These time-lines are guesstimates only, I stand to be corrected if anyone wants to do the actual math.

Some other things to consider:

We are liable for recall 24/7, 365 days a year.  Do this for a civilian employee and you're on overtime, big time overtime.  For most this isn't a huge issue, but if you're in the Immediate Reaction Unit for example, this can have a huge impact on what you can do on your free time for pretty significant stretches.  Through in sundry unit and base duties and suddenly your â Å“free timeâ ? is significantly less free.

We get paid the same whether we work 7.5 hours a day or 24 hours a day.  Having said that, we'd also get the same $$ if we worked 2 hours a day...

Even on Annual leave we must provide contact information where we can be reached.  We can be ordered back from said leave.  If we are on Annual leave and we become aware of a â Å“National Emergencyâ ? it is our duty to immediately contact the nearest Unit, Base or if we're out of the country, Embassy, to report our location and get instructions on how to proceed.

If we wish to proceed outside of our place of duty (usually defined as a circle with a radius of 50 km or so from your place of duty) we technically require a leave pass, even if it is during the evening or weekend.

We do have allowances to compensate us for unusual conditions of work (Sea Pay, Field Operations Allowance, Aircrew etc), but they generally work out to be less than $1 per hour and this money is taxed.  Ironically we would make more money going on course and living in barracks...oh, and for some reason this money isn't taxed, probably because every other government employee gets it as well when they go away on business.

Even when not on tour we get sent all over the country on individual and/or unit tasks for months at a time.  As it is only TD, you are not entitled to bring your family.  Although there are provisions to get back to visit, it's just not the same as you being there, particularly from your spouse's viewpoint when s/he is dealing with all of the family issues when you're on the other side of the country.

We get called out when the river breaks its banks, the Ice Storm hits, the mountainsides erupt into flame, Toronto gets a bit of snow or a hurricane hits and we get the honour and privilege of assisting civilian workers who are quite likely at triple time.  Lets not mention the New York Power workers who got $2000 vacations to Quebec in appreciation...on top of their pay.  In case you're wondering, I seem to recall us Army guys got FOA for helping out, which I believe was about $11/day at that time.

I've been posted 10 times in 19 years, mostly to places I wouldn't dream of living on my own but fortunately I haven' t had a say in the matter as each and every one of those has been a fantastic experience.  But how do you compensate someone for moving your family away from their family and friends?  What about the effect of moving children from one province's education system to another to another?  What about those cases where a Franco family gets posted to Vancouver or an Anglo family goes to Valcartier and the spouse is unilingual?  What about the effect upon a spouse who is trying to build a career, unless they are lucky enough to get into the Public Service?

Perhaps most importantly we face â Å“ultimate liabilityâ ?.  No one else in Canada can be ordered into a situation where the likely outcome is death and be liable to judicial punishment for refusing to obey that order.  This includes civilian fire fighters and police.  Although most Canadians believe the Death penalty was abolished in 1976, it might be interesting to know that it was kept on the books in the NDA until 1998 for offences such as â Å“failure to diligently carry out an operation of war, when so orderedâ ? and â Å“cowardice before the enemyâ ?.

I'm sure there are a gazzilion other issues but I'm sure you get my drift.

Having said all that, if it wasn't for the family, I'd do this for free R&Q and enough money to pay for a car and a new computer every two years because you're right, I didn't join for the money.

wow, very well put.  Enough said on that. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

See what you started. 

 

[NCRCrow]

Canada above self

 

[jc5778]

lol, i know.  It makes for good conversation though, especially when civilians think they have a shmick about our lives. :warstory:

 

[CdnArtyWife]

My biggest problem with your whole argument is that you signed up for this. You knew you would be on call, that you would have to live in places you might not want to, that you would have to go to places where you could be injured or killed.

Yes, we knew what we signed up for, but that is not reason to esentially tell military families to "put up or shut up".

My family (my hubby, myself and my children) has had the pleasure of existing both as civilians trying to cut it working in the education system, and now as a military family. Both my hubby and I agree, that when he swore in and signed on the dotted line, so did I - in invisible ink. We both were very aware as to what our sacrifices would be (ranging from my hubby not able to be at the birth of his first born, not meeting him till he was 2 months old - to having to meet in clandestine so that I could take his kit home and wash it for him while he was on course). Knowing does not make it any easier. I am so tired of hearing civilians judge military families for complaining. I was civilian, I used to judge, I am now ashamed that I ever did. The military life is vastly different from that of civilian life....I have lived both, I can attest, and until you have lived it, you will never fully understand.

We are one of those mature families with kids, barely able to make the ends meet. Would I trade it? Hell NO! The experience, and the people have helped me grow in ways I cannot describe. As for the raise, bring it on, a cost of living raise, just might cover the increase in both rent and insurance rates that we have experienced over the last 4 years.

I appologize now, for anyone that I may have offended with my rant, but I needed to get that off of my chest. Thanks for letting me vent.