Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Tapdancing at its best...again you totally avoided the question and spouted....nothing.

Hey, I'm nuetral in this whole thing, my wish is that the whole area blow off into space tonight, but you refuse to answer ANYTHING and it is ruining any of the good points you do put forward.

 

[aesop081]

- Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks .

Say what ?  

 

[tamouh]

But seriously, if Lebanon was such a friend to the US, then why didn't they make loud and aggressive appeals for help to dig out the Hezbollah militants running a good part of their country?  And why couldn't they do that now?

Lebanon is in so much debt it can't afford anything right now. It couldn't afford another civil war, it can't afford even to pay for current repairs of destroyed infrastructure. Any foreign force (or even lebanese army) fighting against Hezbollah would have lead to civil war for sure. The only and only option will be available is to integrate Hezbollah within the army. That is the only option really, even after the Israeli invasion, that will remain the only option to resolve the Hezbollah issue.

Technically, there are a bunch of people here that know a lot more than we do.  Would you entertain the idea that because you are a product of that region (Jordan wasn't it?) you may have a bit of a cultural bias, and are a bit too close to the issue to be objective?  Not an accusation, just a thought.  

I'm the product of that region, i'm close to the issues, I try to be neutral by evaluating everything based on both sides point of view.

Well then why not leave the war going and let them fight to the last one standing?

I actually have no problem leaving the war and let them do whatever they want to each others. Wasn't that the reason we left our home land in the first place ??!  But what I hate is seeing my new adopted country dragged into this conflict whether on the government level, the protesters (both sides), the army and our loss in that area.

 

[tamouh]

but you refuse to answer ANYTHING and it is ruining any of the good points you do put forward.

What points I didn't answer ?  You've asked me what should have resolved this conflict peacefully, and I answered you. Some will disagree this will resolve it and that is fine. From what I know, this would have resolved it.

If you disagree, why the plan I've put forward will not work ?

What other actions will work ? And how these would progress on the short terms and long term ?

Additionally, considering what happened in the past in that area, what should you be expecting to happen again now ?

 

[Bo]

So I take it that your answers are as follows:
If we keep the decks clear, will you answer the questions?  No.

What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers?  Threaten if necessary

If you were the PM of Israel on July 12, what should have happened?  Attack.

What do you think the non-military solution would be? Seek UN security council resolution condemning Hezbollah (easily will pass)
- Put pressure on Lebanon to secure its border, US can play major role in this as well since Lebanon government became a major US ally after the Syrian withdrawal
- Pursue avenue of swapping prisoners between Lebanon and Israel - official (not between Hezbollah and Israel).
- Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks and deploy soldiers to the south on the border.
- The whole process in my opinion would have taken a month until the time to swap prisoners, and under the right pressure the army would have been deployed in about 3 months time.






Again.   Here is your chance to actually answer a question without paper tigers and misdirection.  Are you up to the task?
No.

George, all 3 of your questions ask the same thing: What is the solution to the current problem?

Tamouh answered them, as well as everyone elses questions so what's the problem?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I don't think you understand the issue. Peace in the ME means Jerusalem for the Palestinians. No Jerusalem means no Palestinians, means no peace for nobody since everyone in that region in one way or another connected to this issue. In fact, the whole world is connected to that issue by now. Since everyone has an interest in either side of the conflict. Israel is unwilling to give up Jerusalem, so the peace you're talking about will never happen , a fact you should begin to grasp and understand. Even if Israel draws back to 1968 line, the Arabs will continue asking for Jerusalem and that issue will still not be resolved.

But today, according to you, a peaceful solution could have been reached?   Funny that......

 

[George Wallace]

Did he answer them, or just dance around and give off CO2?  We assume that he would attack Hezbollah if he were the Israeli PM, but he really didn't say that.  He suggested in a way, "threaten if necessary" (Bruce's words).  He did come up with some "Well, we will let the UN try to settle it", but still avoided the direct questions.  People are getting tired of this avoiding directly answering the questions with a lot of CO2.  We have names for people like that.  Saying that someone else can come up with the solutions is not what we asked.  We asked what his solutions would be.

 

[tamouh]

But today, according to you, a peaceful solution could have been reached?   Funny that......

Again, this is what had been asked:

((( What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers? )))

I've answered specifically to that question and my answer is very clear. What you're bringing from other threads was regarding the whole ME issue though can be linked, it is not the questions presented and not the question I was answering, read the question again above.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Lebanon is in so much debt it can't afford anything right now. It couldn't afford another civil war, it can't afford even to pay for current repairs of destroyed infrastructure. Any foreign force (or even lebanese army) fighting against Hezbollah would have lead to civil war for sure.

Have you not noticed the Western tendency to blow things up, then pay to rebuild them (see Kuwait, Iraq etc) All Lebanon would have to do is put two bumpties in a Ferret scout car and have them say "Gee, could we get some help here?" and if it was a legitimate offer, IMO the NATO troops would be there at their own expense. 

The only and only option will be available is to integrate Hezbollah within the army. That is the only option really, even after the Israeli invasion, that will remain the only option to resolve the Hezbollah issue.

......................................umm.  Hoo.  I can agree that it would be a decisive act, since once they were in, Hezbollah would likely co opt the entire military, and then take the whole country.  Reminds me of some sort of hen house metaphor...

I'm the product of that region, i'm close to the issues, I try to be neutral by evaluating everything based on both sides point of view.

Thus far you have appeared to be wholly against Israel, and sympathetic to Lebanon and Palestine.  Maybe I have it wrong, but you really don't come off as neutral. 

I actually have no problem leaving the war and let them do whatever they want to each others. Wasn't that the reason we left our home land in the first place ??!  But what I hate is seeing my new adopted country dragged into this conflict whether on the government level, the protesters (both sides), the army and our loss in that area.

I don't recall seeing Canadian troops being deployed to the Middle East  ???  Maybe I need to read the paper more often.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Again, this is what had been asked:

((( What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers? )))

I've answered specifically to that question and my answer is very clear. What you're bringing from other threads was regarding the whole ME issue though can be linked, it is not the questions presented and not the question I was answering, read the question again above.

That one is my fault.  I should have said "What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers that realistically would have led to their return alive".  Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. 

 

[tamouh]

Did he answer them, or just dance around and give off CO2?  We assume that he would attack Hezbollah if he were the Israeli PM, but he really didn't say that.  He suggested in a way, "threaten if necessary" (Bruce's words).  He did come up with some "Well, we will let the UN try to settle it", but still avoided the direct questions.  People are getting tired of this avoiding directly answering the questions with a lot of CO2.  We have names for people like that.  Saying that someone else can come up with the solutions is not what we asked.  We asked what his solutions would be.

I did answer the question.....I did say "threaten if necessary", I didn't say attack.....difference between threats and attacks. Israel could have easily said (after putting the presssure from the US..etc) that if Lebanese army is not deployed in x number of times we'll enter sourthern lebanon.

What you're talking about stresses what i've said all along, the issue in this forum is people not willing to respect the other side posts. You've asked me a question and I answered you. You may not like it, but this is my opinion and my view.

Where did I say "someone else can come up with the solutions" ??

 

[tamouh]

Have you not noticed the Western tendency to blow things up, then pay to rebuild them (see Kuwait, Iraq etc) All Lebanon would have to do is put two bumpties in a Ferret scout car and have them say "Gee, could we get some help here?" and if it was a legitimate offer, IMO the NATO troops would be there at their own expense. 

Two questions:
1) Who gets the contracts to rebuild ?
2) Who pays the bills to these contracts ?

e.g. Gulf War I.....who do you think financed that war ? It was the Saudis who paid for large part of it.
e..g Iraq War.......who has the most contracts to rebuild in Iraq? The USA  ,  who is paying these bills? The Iraqi government (debt financed).

I don't recall seeing Canadian troops being deployed to the Middle East    Maybe I need to read the paper more often

Yah maybe, or check: http://www.dnd.ca/site/operations/current_ops_e.asp  part of the UN mission.

That one is my fault.  I should have said "What diplomatic avenue should Israel have taken for this specific event, being the kidnapping of their soldiers that realistically would have led to their return alive".  Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. 

Realistically meaning to your point of view , or realistically so I can answer your question and you'd respect my answer ?

What I've proposed in answer above is the realistic solution that would have been achieved through diplomatic avenues.

.......late nite I'm off......

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Two questions:
1) Who gets the contracts to rebuild ?
2) Who pays the bills to these contracts ?

1) Who cares and
2) Who cares. 
What does it matter who does the rebuilding?  Is some pissy left wing moaning about western contractors really a good reason to leave Lebanon at the mercy of a well organized and funded terrorist organization?

Yah maybe, or check: http://www.dnd.ca/site/operations/current_ops_e.asp  part of the UN mission.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  Best paper tiger yet!!  Excluding the troops in A'stan and Israel, there are 109 troops in OBSERVER missions.  And I have a strong belief that they are highly motivated to OBSERVE the hell out of the area, but I don't see a big stabilization effort ensuing. 

Realistically meaning to your point of view , or realistically so I can answer your question and you'd respect my answer ?
What I've proposed in answer above is the realistic solution that would have been achieved through diplomatic avenues.

 

And I really have to wonder, especially with all of your touted "regional first had experience" WTF good talking to terrorists would serve?  Best case scenario, you trade prisoners and encourage more attacks. 

.......late nite I'm off......

HAH!!  As always, when the going gets tough, the trolls get going.  "Tourza, Rey, where are you?"  :'(

 

[Bo]

1) Who cares and
2) Who cares. 
What does it matter who does the rebuilding?  Is some pissy left wing moaning about western contractors really a good reason to leave Lebanon at the mercy of a well organized and funded terrorist organization?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  Best paper tiger yet!!  Excluding the troops in A'stan and Israel, there are 109 troops in OBSERVER missions.  And I have a strong belief that they are highly motivated to OBSERVE the hell out of the area, but I don't see a big stabilization effort ensuing. 
 

And I really have to wonder, especially with all of your touted "regional first had experience" WTF good talking to terrorists would serve?  Best case scenario, you trade prisoners and encourage more attacks. 

HAH!!  As always, when the going gets tough, the trolls get going.  "Tourza, Rey, where are you?"  :'(

Zipperhead, how do you expect to keep a decent dialogue going when you consantly throw personal attacks?

Not only that, but it was you who said the following:

Have you not noticed the Western tendency to blow things up, then pay to rebuild them (see Kuwait, Iraq etc) All Lebanon would have to do is put two bumpties in a Ferret scout car and have them say "Gee, could we get some help here?" and if it was a legitimate offer, IMO the NATO troops would be there at their own expense

.

And when Tamouh responded:

) Who gets the contracts to rebuild ?
2) Who pays the bills to these contracts ?

e.g. Gulf War I.....who do you think financed that war ? It was the Saudis who paid for large part of it.
e..g Iraq War.......who has the most contracts to rebuild in Iraq? The USA  ,  who is paying these bills? The Iraqi government (debt financed).

To which you responded "Who cares"  :

It was you who stated the farce in the first place and when the truth came out, you place a nice little spin on it by bashing the left.

What does it matter who does the rebuilding?

Um...The one who does the rebuilding gets all the money.  :

 

[tourza]

1) Who cares and
2) Who cares. 
What does it matter who does the rebuilding?  Is some pissy left wing moaning about western contractors really a good reason to leave Lebanon at the mercy of a well organized and funded terrorist organization?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  Best paper tiger yet!!  Excluding the troops in A'stan and Israel, there are 109 troops in OBSERVER missions.  And I have a strong belief that they are highly motivated to OBSERVE the hell out of the area, but I don't see a big stabilization effort ensuing. 
 

And I really have to wonder, especially with all of your touted "regional first had experience" WTF good talking to terrorists would serve?  Best case scenario, you trade prisoners and encourage more attacks. 

HAH!!  As always, when the going gets tough, the trolls get going.  "Tourza, Rey, where are you?"  :'(

What are we talking about exactly?

Regards,

tourza

 

[Rey]

Hi all,

HAH!!  As always, when the going gets tough, the trolls get going.  "Tourza, Rey, where are you?"  :'(

I'm not a Troll.
So let me make my position clear. I am a civilian. Mostly a lefty with some righty tendencies, primarily in policing and military.

I have a different position than someone as yourself, I will try to back up any position with cited evidence. Though, I will admit, that I sometimes have trouble remembering where I read something.  :-[

If you support your position with enough documentation, I will adjust my view.

So can we get past the insults?

I'm not going to answer specific points, I tried that in response to Zipperhead_cop's post  - and we all saw how that turned out.  :-\

So I'm going to answer some points brought up in this thread, some pointed at me, and some rather general.

You will find that I tend to switch terms between insurgent and terrorist.
IMO:
Insurgent: attacks military target
Terrorist: attacks civilians


I try to read a variety of news sources, primarily international.

In regard to my comment on Qana, here are the two articles I had read. I had also read an article (can't remember where) that indicated that a spokesman (can't remember the title) indicated that the video being shown was of a vehicle hiding behind a similar building. If I can find the article, I will cite it.

No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34186

Livni: Qana attack led to turning point in support for Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html


I have questioned attacks on what I see as civilian targets. I have admitted that when arms are carried/stored in civilian buildings and vehicles, they lose their noncombatant status, provided there is enough intelligence to support it.
But I have yet to see any information about numbers of attacks and percentages of these that carried arms/insurgents. Surely, there must be some data from after action reports that would indicate the number of vehicles that were legitimate targets.

I have seen a few points in the line of (to paraphrase) "stomp them into the ground, and they won't attack anymore". This gives you 20 years of relative peace, until the next generation grows up, at which point you'll have to stomp another generation. With enough decisive victories like this, you could victory yourself to death. (I think there was a famous quote along these lines, can't remember it though)

For a long lasting peace between parties you need a negotiated peace.

A suggestion.

Lebanon: The Lebanese govt has already stated that with the return of the Sheba farms area, they can have peace. I know, it is supposed to be Syrian territory, but Syria has said that they turned it over to Lebanon. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/763504.stm ) In any such negotiation Hezbollah is going to be a player, whether we like it or not. But the advantage of having Hezbollah involved in the process ensures any agreement can be enforced by Lebanon. In fact, as Hezbollah has said they will become a defensive force in Lebanon if this happens, this could be used to negotiate disarming.

Occupied Terratories/Israel: Return to '67 border, I believe there is a UN resolution for this. Jerusalem becomes an International city. For the first while, there will have to be co-operation between Palestinians and Israelis to stop, investigate and prosecute terrorists.

These are broad stroke ideas.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
For a long lasting peace between parties you need a negotiated peace.
...

Nonsense.

Amongst the longest periods of lasting 'peace' we have in modern history are:

• Britain/France (1815 to the present) imposed by the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo; and

• Anglosphere+/Axis powers (1945 to the present) imposed at various places like Dresden, Hiroshima, Reichwald Forest and so on.

Negotiated peace is nothing more than an invitation to another war.  We will get peace when the enemy – and there is one although it is not, yet, even most of Arabic/Persian Islam – is safely in its graves and on its knees.

Edit: spelling

 

[Bo]

Negotiated peace is nothing more than an invitation to another war.  We will get peace when the enemy – and there is one although it is not, yet, even most of Arabic/Persian Islam – is safely in its graves and on its knees.

Interesting opinion. Kill 'em all so we can have peace.

Israel and Egypt were able to negotiate a peace and it has lasted over 27 years.

 

[paracowboy]

Interesting opinion. Kill 'em all so we can have peace.

Israel and Egypt were able to negotiate a peace and it has lasted over 27 years.

after Israel kicked the shit out of them. A few times.

 

[2 Cdo]

Why do some lefties fail to grasp that SOMETIMES force is the only way to ensure lasting peace. Without force, or the real threat of force, peace is just a pipe dream. As far as the negotiate argument, how do you negotiate with someone who's stated purpose is to destroy you?

I breathlessly await some left-wing answer to that question, because I honestly don't see how or why you would want to negotiate with a group who only wants to see your demise.