• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

paracowboy said:
So, it's not religion, as such. It's politics (read: greed) disguised as religion.

True in 99% of the world, not the Holy Land. But don't listen to me. Listen to Isham, a summer camp director in Gaza, as he explains what he teaches the children:

"We teach the children the truth.(...) Most important, the children understand that the conflict with the Jews is not over land, but rather over religion. As long as Jews remain here, between the [Jordan] river and the sea, they will be our enemy and we will continue to pursue and kill them. When they leave we won't hurt them."

If this is politics, then what is religion?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/754992.html
 
???

First you quote paracowboy; then you ask "If this is politics, then what is religion?"  Obviously you didn't understand the words you quoted.

paracowboy said:
So, it's not religion, as such. It's politics (read: greed) disguised as religion.
 
To George Wallace:

On the Hizbollah flag, the bottom text means "The Islamic Resistance in Lebanon". The upper text is the second half of Quran 5:56 "for, all who ally themselves with God and His Apostle and those who have attained to faith - behold, it is they, the partisans of God, who shall be victorious!" The green text is the name of the group, "the partisans of God", extracted from the same verse. Politics, disguised as religion?

From the 1988 Hamas covenant: Article 6: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned..." Politics, disguised as religion?

If anything is disguised in the holy land, it is religion, disguised as politics. For example, what Hizbollah calls "resistance" is merely the expression of the hatred of jews dictated by Qur'an 2:140, 4:46, 4:160, 5:41, 5:51, 5:82 and 9:30. Here is the last verse, for illustration:

9:30 AND THE jewS say, "Ezra is God's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth! [They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them!" How perverted are their minds!
 
joaquim,

If I am to understand you correctly, are you really trying to assert that Hamas and Hezballah's actions are purely motivated by religious zeal?

And re: the passage you cited - if I am reading it correctly, does it not ask God to punish them.... what do we, or any other human being, have anything to do with that? Or are you saying that these people are claiming to be God?
 
CC:

Haven't you heard?  "God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform"  We are all God's instruments and He will use us as He wishes. 

Apparently Hezbollah read the same book my Presbyterian Ministers did after all.
 
joaquim said:
If anything is disguised in the holy land, it is religion, disguised as politics. For example, what Hizbollah calls "resistance" is merely the expression of the hatred of jews dictated by Qur'an 2:140, 4:46, 4:160, 5:41, 5:51, 5:82 and 9:30. Here is the last verse, for illustration:

So!  According to you Islam is a Religion of HATRED and INTOLERANCE.


joaquim said:
9:30 AND THE jewS say, "Ezra is God's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth! [They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them!" How perverted are their minds!

Isn't this a sign of intolerance?  How many examples in our everyday life do we find people calling something by a different name.  Hot Dog is Chiene Chaud to the French; Munchen is Munich to the English; God is Allah; and on and on.  Because someone uses another name for the same thing, doesn't mean that it is wrong, nor should it be a statement of politics in a religious forum. 

I look at this as Politics disguised as Religion.  It is not a religious belief that spreads hatred like this, but the political manipulation of religious beliefs to forward a political agenda.
 
George Wallace said:
..... It is not a religious belief that spreads hatred like this, but the political manipulation of religious beliefs to forward a political agenda.

+1
 
Seems to me the point is going to be lost on the radicals.  They openly promote the elimination of government and encourage the Islamic leaders to take control of state affairs. 
From my Al Qaeda training manual:

After the fall of our orthodox caliphates on March 3, 1924 and after expelling the colonialists, our Islamic nation was afflicted with apostate rulers who took over in the Moslem nation. These rulers turned out to be more infidel and criminal than the colonialists themselves. Moslems have endured all kinds of harm, oppression, and torture at their hands.
Those apostate rulers threw thousands of the Haraka Al-Islamyia (Islamic Movement) youth in gloomy jails and detention centers that were equipped with the most modern torture devices and [manned with] experts in oppression and torture. Those youth had refused to move in the rulers’ orbit, obscure matters to the youth, and oppose the idea of rebelling against the rulers. But they [the rulers] did not stop there; they started to fragment the essence of the Islamic nation by trying to eradicate its Moslem identity.
Thus, they started spreading godless and atheistic views among the youth. We found some that claimed that socialism was from Islam, democracy was the [religious] council, and the prophet - God bless and keep him - propagandized communism.
Colonialism and its followers, the apostate rulers, then started to openly erect crusader centers, societies, and organizations like Masonic Lodges, Lions and Rotary clubs, and foreign schools. They aimed at  producing a wasted generation that pursued everything that is western and produced rulers, ministers, leaders, physicians, engineers, businessmen, politicians, journalists, and information specialists.
[Koranic verse:] “And Allah’s enemies plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.”
They [the rulers] tried, using every means and [kind of] seduction, to produce a generation of young men that did not know [anything] except what they [the rulers] want, did not say except what they [the rulers] think about, did not live except according to their [the rulers’] way, and did not dress except in their [the rulers’] clothes. However, majestic Allah turned their deception back on them, as a large group of
those young men who were raised by them [the rulers] woke up from their sleep and returned to Allah, regretting and repenting.
The young men returning to Allah realized that Islam is not just performing rituals but a complete system: Religion and government, worship and Jihad [holy war], ethics and dealing with people, and the Koran and sword. The bitter situation that the nation has reached is a result of its divergence from Allah’s course and his righteous law for all places and times.
That [bitter situation] came about as a result of its children’s love for the world, their loathing of death, and their abandonment of Jihad [holy war]. Unbelief is still the same. It pushed Abou Jahl- may Allah
curse him - and Kureish’s valiant infidels to battle the prophet - God bless and keep him - and to torture his companions - may Allah’s grace be on them. It is the same unbelief that drove Sadat, Hosni Mubarak, Gadhafi, Hafez Assad, Saleh, Fahed - Allah’s curse be upon the non-believing leaders - and all the  apostate Arab rulers to torture, kill, imprison, and torment Moslems. These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle. Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it. The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.The young came to prepare themselves for Jihad [holy war], commanded by the majestic Allah’s order in the holy Koran. [Koranic verse:] “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.”


This is how these guys think.  There is only one law--Allah.  There is only one government--Allah.  And in their minds, there is only one way that the entire planet will be acceptable to Allah--stone age theocracy.  And until they get it to that point, they feel duty bound to keep pounding away at whatever they feel is the best course of action.  They figure their eternity is on the line, so what does it matter if it takes generations to get something done?  That is why they beam with pride to see their kids strap on explosives and pick up rifles.  They think that they are working towards a greater goal, and we are just a bunch of heathen rodents to be put down to make way for the new Islamic paradise on earth they are working towards.  Death to them just means a fast track to the fun part. 
Solution?  Kill 'em.  Find them, wax them.  Simple.  Be nice to the ones who aren't involved, get them on board with the business of living.  For the radicals, there will be no talking with them.  Despite what our culturally bias view of wanting to die is "crazy", they see it as dedication.  Hell, I think I have seen rhetoric from one of the groups (Hezbollah I think) that made it seem like if you want to be living, you are the one with the perception problem.  Couple to that the fact that they know us and our culture fifty times better than we (on average) know them, they understand when to back off, when to make soothing noises and when to exploit our weak, conciliatory western attitudes.  People have to get their heads around the concept that you can kiss their maniacal arses  till the sun goes down and that will not buy us one splinter of consideration or compassion from them.  It would be like if a monkey with rabies handed you a flower.  You might go "aw, that was nice of him", then you would still put a bullet in it's head and bury it, because that is what you feel you are required to do in the best interests of all parties involved  [again, stressing that this is the radical take on the religion].
And I am also not so naive that I believe that there is only pure intentions behind Hamas and Hezbollah or even Al Qaeda.  To be sure the guys at the top are living large, and are pretty business minded.  But along with them and the zealot facilitators, they are the ones who need to be weeded out. 
And all the UN jabbering in the world won't make it otherwise.
 
George Wallace said:
It is not a religious belief that spreads hatred like this, but the political manipulation of religious beliefs to forward a political agenda.

You can't possibly be serious!

I quote the Qur'an, a text written in the 7th century, before the invention of politics as we know it. I show you an example of pure hatred for Jews and Christians, and you still call it politics! I give up. You win. This forum is politics. The weather report is politics. Everything is politics. Now I see it.

PS: hey, zipperhead_cop, thanks for the support, but no thanks. No one knows for sure who is right, so do not mock the other guy's beliefs as you fight for yours.
 
::)

I don't know what dimension you have come from, but what drove the creation of Kingdoms and Empires before the Qur'an was written in the 7th Century? 

Are we in a "What came first; the Chicken or the Egg?" scenario here?  Did man become a 'political animal' first or a 'religious fanatic'?  I guess you also call Darwin a Quack. 

Well guy; have it your way.   ::)
 
No one writes about the Jewish equivalent of Jihad. This is an army forum, so I think it is appropriate to discuss religion when it applies to war.

The Jew call it milchemet mitzvah, hebrew for mandatory war. The article below explains the distinction between it and milchemet reshut, optional war. A few selected passages (text englicized for clarity):

According to all, an example of a mandatory war is conquering the land of Israel, as was done by Joshua after the exodus from Egypt, while an example of an optional war is extending the borders of the land of Israel as done by king David.

After stating that in battle one should not have fear, the Bible then proceeds to discuss who is exempt from war. Interestingly, the Bible then gives an exemption to battle to those who are scared (this refers to one who is worried about their sins) (...) Other people that are exempted from war are those who recently married, planted a vineyard, or built a new house. (...) The Gemara clarifies that the exemptions to battle only apply to an optional war. However, in a mandatory war, even a bride and groom are obligated to “fight”.

However, there is an argument in the Gemara regarding whether an attack on an enemy nation to reduce their future threat is considered an optional or a mandatory war. (...) Based on this, it would seem that a pre-emptive war like the Six-day war, where it was clear that opposing troops were ready to attack Israel, would be considered a mandatory war.


Note: the Gemara is a part of the Talmud that clarifies the Jewish law. It was written in the 4th and 5th century.

The article also discusses the need to offer peace to an ennemy before attacking him, how to treat prisoners and whether women are obligated to fight. To understand these rules, you must know that the land of Israel, as cartographed in Genesis, includes the current Israel, the west bank, Southern Lebanon, the Golan, and Eastern parts of Syrian and Jordan. It does not include the Negev desert or Eilat. The status of Gaza is vague. I link a map below.

The sum of milchenet mitzvah and jihad is a war that will end only with the military destruction of one side. And since both religions are told to never surrender, it will be ugly. Politics, needless to say, will play an important role but as an accessory.

http://www.torahmitzion.org/eng/resources/show.asp?id=231
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/maps/img/002.jpg
 
religion is nothing more than a means whereby a select few use the gullibility of the many to enforce their own agenda on others - which inevitably becomes "how do I get more power?" resulting in war.

Religion is nothing but a mask for politics.

Reach down, grab a buttock in each hand, and pull slightly. That "pop!" you hear is your head making it's egress from your posterior.
 
religion is nothing more than a means whereby a select few use the gullibility of the many to enforce their own agenda on others

WTF?? The overwhelming percentage of believers in the worlds religions due it of their own freewill with no coercion whatsover. Further, the overwhelming number of 'mainstream' religions are peaceful....preaching brotherhood and inclusiveness.
I'm Anglican. Is the Archbishop of Canterbury programming me to kill??

I think I heard another 'pop'.
 
Pvt.Bloggins

I am sure you have heard the term "Sheeple"?  Religious zealots are what we are talking about, not moderate religions.  Just because you don't feel it is your duty as an Anglican to go forth and kill all in the name of your religion, doesn't mean that there are not others that do.  joaquin is one such believer.  Jimmy Jones was a charismatic leader of a Religious Cult who convinced his followers to drink poisoned Koolaid in a mass suicide.  We have seen the same type of thing in Waco Texas, and in California, France, Switzerland and numerous other States.  What is your opinion of the Moonies, Hari Krishna's, etc.  The Pope, the Mullah's, Ammans, etc. all crave power.
 
Pvt.Bloggins said:
I'm Anglican.  
good for you. I'm Canadian.

Is the Archbishop of Canterbury programming me to kill??
no, not any more. There was a time when he was doing precisely that. You'd have been led to cheerfully butcher Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc. There are still parts of the world where Christians gleefully murder other Christians for genuflecting incorrectly. Well, actually, they do it so that someone else can profit from it, but they BELIEVE they're doing it because an invisible man in the sky wants them to. Because he loves them.

Little defensive? Try to read into things a teensy bit more. Getting spoon-fed what to think for too long seems to have slowed down your perceptive abilities a tad.
 
There are still parts of the world where Christians gleefully murder other Christians for genuflecting incorrectly. Well, actually, they do it so that someone else can profit from it, but they BELIEVE they're doing it because an invisible man in the sky wants them to. Because he loves them.

Where?



 
To clarify things a bit, Politics in organizational theory is the method of gaining access to scarce or limited resources.

You don't need political parties to have "Politics", look inside an office or even a schoolyard. Sometimes the resources in question are not physical, but intangibles like power, "prestige" or emotional satisfaction (it's not always about the office supplies).

Religion is a powerful organizing principle to explain the Universe and your place in it, so people who know how to co opt your belief system have an invaluable edge when playing "Politics". In other threads I've noted that some modern ideologies like Socialism and its many sub variations have many similarities to religion for their followers, which may go a long way to explaining why Socialist leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, and so on were able to mobilize vast populations and entire nations and lead them into ruin.
 
joaquim said:
No one writes about the Jewish equivalent of Jihad. This is an army forum, so I think it is appropriate to discuss religion when it applies to war.

The sum of milchenet mitzvah and jihad is a war that will end only with the military destruction of one side. And since both religions are told to never surrender, it will be ugly. Politics, needless to say, will play an important role but as an accessory.

http://www.torahmitzion.org/eng/resources/show.asp?id=231
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/maps/img/002.jpg

Joaquim,

Although your definition of milchenet mitzvah is correct, your application of it in the bold text above from your post is incorrect.

Last time I checked, it certainly isn't the Hebrews (or Israel for that matter politicly speaking) who are waging any jihad, or using this relgious justification (I personally call it an excuse - same for your quoted Koran example) to wage war against their neighbours and drive them into the sea.

They are the ones who are being attacked and their borders breached by Muslim religious zealots who are using the Koran to justify their actions.

The Bible, Koran, Torah et al all say many things. Quite simply, it is IDIOTS using 'interpretations' of these verses to justify killing, torturing, and (attempting) to obliterate other nations or peoples that are the extremists.

I could cut off my left big toe tomorrow because I think it's ugly and can justify it in my mind. That still means I'd be an idiot.

Don't quote passages from Relious texts as a reasoning/justification for war/jihad when only one side is actually applying that particular religious principle, and big hint here...it isn't the Hebrews. It is the Muslim extremeists who are doing this.
 
"To understand these rules, you must know that the land of Israel, as cartographed in Genesis, includes the current Israel, the west bank, Southern Lebanon, the Golan, and Eastern parts of Syrian and Jordan."

- Given the ebb and flow of things in the OT, I think one might be able to make a case for most of the area between the Nile and the Tigris. 
 
joaquim,

Politics, or the methods we humans use to make group descisions, trancend the nation-state... virtually any social group has a political aspect to it. What Mr. Wallace is saying is that the leaders of these groups are using religious devotion as a method of supporting their agenda and their well being.

Like the U.S., their actions are far from alturistic (that's for the socialism and hitler comment, a_majoor - national socialist doesn't mean socialist, just like democratic republic doesn't mean democracy, and "the american dream" is a far more "religious" idea than anything socialist I've ever read - but, different thread, different argument...back to our regularily scheduled debate... ;)).

As I pointed out before, these passages you quote need to be interpreted in a very motivated manner to justify what is going on.

If you want to referr to old history though, Muslim states were actually comparatively tolerant of other abrahamic religions (with some notable exceptions... see above).
 
Back
Top