Pet Peeves with voting

[Aislinn]

Okay, perhaps it's just me, but what is Elections Canada up to these days? I understand that in the world arena Elections Canada is highly regarded. But here at home, I have some issues. Somehow I got conned into working on the election. While going through my training (yes, everyone you saw at the poll stations went through a whole 2/12 hours of training!) and again on election day itself, I came up against four things that continue to bug me, even three days after the fact.

1) Everyone makes such a big deal about the privacy of the ballot, which is fine. What I take issue with is, after having marked my private ballot, the DRO then takes it out of my hands to remove the counterfoil. Oh, but then I'm allowed to have it back to put my ballot in the box. Why should anyone else be allowed to touch my ballot after I've marked it?

2) I was seriously concerned when I was told that a person could make an oath or solemn affirmation on behalf of another person, essentially stating that even though this person has no ID, no address, and no way of proving who they really are, they should still be allowed to vote. Not only that, but this oath or affirmation can be given by someone (a DRO) who is hired for a single day, who cannot ultimately be held legally accountable, and is done in the midst of a voting station. I understand that Elections Canada is trying to be fair and allow all Canadians to vote, including those without addresses, but there are better ways of doing this, not least of which is a notary of the public. They are more accountable and more stringent in their regulations.

3) ID was not asked for. Some have mentioned it on the boards already, but it is worth mentioning again. Everyone on the voters list can only vote once, but someone can easily impersonate another person when ID is not asked for. Even though the problem can ultimately be solved by a show of ID, it is not worth the hassle and it is a problem which can be easily prevented.

4) Finally, and the one that annoys me the most: My vote did not count. The person who I voted for did not get her seat in my riding, so ultimately my vote was meaningless. Perhpas, as been mentioned in many political debates, Canada should look into proportional representation, not first-past-the-post voting style that we currently have.

Ah, that feels better...
Cheers.

 

[larry Strong]

No your vote was not meaningless, just because you did not win. If nothing else it helped the party of your choice, as now days they get paid by the "vote".

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Enami,
I worked the election as well and hopefully I can shed some light on your concerns.
1. The reason the counterfoil is removed is to ensure that the folded up piece of paper is actually the ballot you were given and not something else.
2. The onus is placed on the person swearing the oath and since the person swearing the oath has to be on the voters list, if irregularities occur the person swearing the oath can be tracked down.
3. I can't speak to the circumstances of your particular polling place but generally the procedure across Canada is that if a person appears with a voters card they do not need ID since the voters card was only sent to one address and you can't go to various voting places with the same voters card and vote several times as it is only good for one polling place. If you don't have a voters card then you show ID or have someone swear an oath as mentioned above. Fairly straight forward.
4. I agree partially with you in that Canada needs proportional representation but your vote was not wasted as the federal parties get federal funding based on the amount of votes they receive so at least you can contribute to their coffers by voting for them. That is what I did because the candidate of my choice had no chance of success in my riding.
Hope this helps,
Bart

 

[evil drunken-fool]

I have a major pet peeve and I was not fully aware of this until I seen it with my own two eyes. Under bill C-114 people with a mental handicap are allowed to vote, fine enough under rights and freedoms i guess they have that right. However, I worked the 2004 election day for a party that won the particular riding by a large margin, so it's not like this is something over a couple votes. During that day i seen a man who i knew come in with his son who is mentally handicapped. The man voted then got his sons ballot, went with him and marked the ballot for him, did it all for him. And you are telling me that guy didnt vote twice. HE DID IT ALL. I dont care if his son goes back there and marks whatever on his ballot just let him do it himself. I dont care what anyone says, what that guy did was against the law. Seriously, where do we draw the line?

 

[George Wallace]

I have a major pet peeve and I was not fully aware of this until I seen it with my own two eyes. Under bill C-114 people with a mental handicap are allowed to vote, fine enough under rights and freedoms i guess they have that right........ Seriously, where do we draw the line?

Some of us may suspect that half the population is severely handicapped at times, but you have brought up a valid point.  I have heard reports of Elections Canada actually going into a Hospital Ward for Alzheimer's Patients and taking their votes. 

Hearing of other 'Irregularities' such as one person with ID vouching for another without ID or Voters Card, who in turn vouches for the next person, who went on to vouch for another.  People showing up at the Polling Station, to find their name already crossed off, or not on the List.  No requirement for Proof of Citizenship.  The list goes on and on.

There have been a lot of 'Irregularities' brought up about the last election, and we may see the Conservatives bring about some Election Reforms.....or at the very least give Elections Canada a 'Wake Up Call'.

 

[Gunnar]

3. I can't speak to the circumstances of your particular polling place but generally the procedure across Canada is that if a person appears with a voters card they do not need ID since the voters card was only sent to one address and you can't go to various voting places with the same voters card and vote several times as it is only good for one polling place. If you don't have a voters card then you show ID or have someone swear an oath as mentioned above. Fairly straight forward.

And if I steal my father's card, or the one from the neighbour, then what's the proof that I'm entitled to vote?  Particularly since the voter's cards state that THEY ARE NOT A FORM OF IDENTIFICATION?  Or perhaps I just went around collecting these things from mailboxes, and I like the idea of voting 4-5 times.  How would anyone know?

 

[Zartan]

My parents had a weird experience when they were voting. They found the names of both myself and sister (who is younger than I - 16), on the voter's list. They got our names crossed out, but I have no idea how we registered for the election (they did send us papers, which were disposed of).

Another thing, did anyone hear about that riding in northern Saskatchewan which had a voter turnout of over 100% in several locations?

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Gunnar,
I hope to allay your concerns in the order you brought them up. If you steal your father's or a neighbour's card and vote with it, their name will be crossed out so when they come to vote they will have to swear an oath that they haven't voted and elections Canada can launch an investigation into what happened. Since they will have the voter's card you brought in they will be able to deduce that who ever voted under your father's name or your neighbor's name used the stolen voter's card and depending on the turnout to that poll the poll workers may or may not be able to describe what that person looked like. Also if you steal your father's card and you live at the same address or a neighbor's and they live adjacent to you, you would be going to the same polling place. Odds are if you voted falsely and try to come back later to vote again you will be recognized and the police called. So if you only voted with the stolen card and then the rightful person came to vote they would be allowed to vote so there would be no additional votes cast in that riding, if you were eligible to vote. If you weren't then you are right an extra vote would have been cast.

    You could go around collecting the cards from mailboxes but keep in mind that since polling usually takes place in a central polling place for the surrounding area it would arouse suspicion if you went from one ballot box to another in the same school gym or church basement. You could travel around throughout your riding stealing voters cards as they are mailed, hoping you don't get caught, then travel around your riding with the voter's cards hoping the people haven't already voted and been crossed off the list, arousing suspicion when you come in claiming your received the card in the mail.

Basically it boils down to the need to make voting as easy as possible for the roughly 13 million people who vote legally rather then make it difficult to vote to try and stop the possibly few hundred people who may try to vote fraudulently. Since the turn out was roughly 60% the odds that people who are ineligible to vote going out of their way as stated above to vote is slim. We could go all hardcore and mark people's thumbs with ink after they vote like in countries where civic society is not as robust as Canada's but I believe that as a cost benefit analysis the current system is adequate.

Zartan,
Elections Canada updates it's voter's registration through numerous ways including revenue Canada so if you and your sister filed tax returns your names may have been scooped up in some sort of computer info dragnet. If you haven't filed tax returns I'm fresh out of ideas as to how it happened.

Hope that helps,
Bart

 

[Zartan]

Well, my sister has never had a job...

 

[CdnArtyWife]

Every time there was an election in the last 31 years, my parents have been visited by enumerators and recieved voter's cards. My parents, both of them, have Permanent Resident Status and are still US citizens. My parents don't vote, as they know they are not allowed. But they have told enumerators in the past, who answered back with, "well, vote anyway...you live here, you are not moving back to the states, you should have a say in who governs you" These are technically employees of Elections Canada telling my parents to break the law.

My parents are happy with not being able to vote...it gives them free reign to complain about any government in office, without feeling like they gave up their right to complain by not voting.

Fortunately, my parents are well aware of the laws regarding non-citizens and voting. But not everyone is so honest. I am sure other residents in Canada who are not citizens have recieved voter cards and have voted. I believe, as do my parents, proof of citizenship should be required (ie, Passport, Birth Certificate, etc)

BTW, I got a phone call from Elections Canada...I did not recieve a voter card so I registered at the poll. Well apparently someone came in with my voter card after I had already voted and tried to vote with it. Maybe I have a gremlin living in my mailbox.

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Zartan,
Does she have a driver's license?

The Register is updated using the following sources:

    * provincial and territorial motor vehicle registrars
    * Canada Revenue Agency
    * Citizenship and Immigration Canada
    * provincial and territorial vital statistics registrars, and provincial electoral agencies with permanent lists of electors (e.g. British Columbia and Quebec)
    * information supplied by electors when they register to vote or revise their information during and between federal electoral events
    * proven electoral lists from other Canadian jurisdictions
If you still have more questions about the election process and have "internet" access you could try elections.ca

Bart

 

[Gunnar]

Odds are if you voted falsely and try to come back later to vote again you will be recognized and the police called. So if you only voted with the stolen card and then the rightful person came to vote they would be allowed to vote so there would be no additional votes cast in that riding, if you were eligible to vote. If you weren't then you are right an extra vote would have been cast.

BTW, I got a phone call from Elections Canada...I did not recieve a voter card so I registered at the poll. Well apparently someone came in with my voter card after I had already voted and tried to vote with it. Maybe I have a gremlin living in my mailbox.

The prosecution rests.  Once is too much, particularly since a simple ID check is all it takes to fix, and it's supposed to be the law.  Statistics said that it was extremely unlikely that AIDS would be found in the Red Cross' blood donations.  Now, they screen ALL donations, and we have Canadian Blood Services instead.

But my question wasn't whether or not it was statistically likely, or whether it made sense...really, I want to know why they're not checking.  Has election law been changed?  If so, maybe they should update what the voter cards say...

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Gunnar,
They are not checking ID to make it as quick and easy to vote as possible.  Though that is just an educated guess since I am just an Elections Canada apologist, not an official spokesperson.
In fact you don't need to go around stealing voter's cards, you don't need them to vote with, they just make it easier to vote because they have your poll number on it and also allows the poll clerk to see how your name is spelt.
In the Manual for Deputy returning officers and Poll clerks it states all a voter has to do is come up and state their name and address and if they are registered they are given a ballot. It's just that easy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Has election law changed?" Do you mean they use to check ID? I don't remember, but I'll take your word for it if they did. In that case it has changed.
Bart
P.S. For the peace of mind of anyone just skimming this thread, you can't get AIDS from voting.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If that's the excuse, I don't buy it.  I can't speak to all polling setups, but generally behind each poll desk there is one table with a privacy screen.  While one person is marking a ballot, the poll clerks - there are usually more than one - could verify the ID of the next person in line.

[Add: there is a practical reason to not require ID.  No person should be compelled to carry or even own a piece of ID, let alone photo ID.]

 

[Bart Nikodem]

While one person is marking a ballot, the poll clerks - there are usually more than one - could verify the ID of the next person in line.

True, unfortunately  Elections Canada only wants  each poll to deal with one person at a time to reduce confusion.

 

[Zartan]

Zartan,
Does she have a driver's license?

The Register is updated using the following sources:

    * provincial and territorial motor vehicle registrars
    * Canada Revenue Agency
    * Citizenship and Immigration Canada
    * provincial and territorial vital statistics registrars, and provincial electoral agencies with permanent lists of electors (e.g. British Columbia and Quebec)
    * information supplied by electors when they register to vote or revise their information during and between federal electoral events
    * proven electoral lists from other Canadian jurisdictions
If you still have more questions about the election process and have "internet" access you could try elections.ca

Bart

Nay, nay, nay... Strange, no? I have no idea how she could have winded up on the elector's list. No work exp. No licenses, of any sort. We've always been Canadians. An anomaly, I suppose.

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Zartan,
Now I'm officially fresh out of ideas.
Bart

 

[Zartan]

Thanks for your time. As far as I can tell, no wrong came from our names being on the list. Just a curiosity.

 

[3rd Herd]

Two issues I see. One every time I have voted there are the usual two polling officials seated behind the table one checks my ID and voter card the other crosses my name off the voter list and hands me my ballot. Now watching with eagle eyes directly behind them are the party lackeys-scrutineers sometimes up to five. So I have seven sets of eyeballs watching me vote, with all this coverage how can mistakes happen.

Next in regard to handicap voters most seriously handicap people have had a power of attorney done. That person gets to vote twice legally, their vote and their power of vote. The power of vote is technically to be done as their charge would want. Does it happen? Who is to know.

Lastly, one thing missing from this thread. The Michigan student at U of T who used his student card and hydro bill to vote and the bragged about it in the news. One is he still in school, two is he still in the country? After all confessing to election fraud on National TV, fraud is fraud.