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PM's New Bde of Peacekeepers (5,000 new soldiers), could it be a SOC Light Force?

The other key issue is the cost. With Britain, Germany and the US looking at making sleeker, lighter mechanized formations, it's not unimaginable that they would be willing to part with some of their used armour for a price considerably lower then that of the MGS and it's associated train of vehicles. Afterall, the governments not just planning on buy the MGS but a system of four vehicles acting together....only one of that system's parts won't be operations until 2010. It is foolish to the extreme for us to bank our entire DFS capability on a system of  vehicles unproven in combat, and it is downright idiotic to do so when part of the system won't arrive to 8 years. More to the point though, what ever happened to keeping it simple, why go out and buy a three part system that has the capability of one? I mean what will happen when you start taking casualties (one of the US divisions in Iraq lost four LAV3's in a week), and you no longer have one of those parts? Does the entire thing fall apart? Can they still operate effectively? Also, what about the maintenance of the vehicles, if I remember correctly somebody stated that the LAV3 and MGS are only 15% compatible, I have no idea if this is true or not, but if it is, imagine the supply nightmare  of trying to maintain a full Sqn of the the bloody things, when each is different, and your in godknowswherikstan.
 
With respect to all here, I am not advocating getting rid of tanks.  I am not advocating getting rid of anything or for that matter buying anything.  I am suggesting that to assist in getting your point across to the public, and from them to the politicians, that you put a dollar figure on the capability you want/need and state what advantages it offers.

For example, with respect to tanks.

How much does it cost to maintain a Squadron of Leos and their crews?
How much does it cost to Ship and Operate a Squadron in Afghanistan?

How would it compare to a Squadron of MGS/TUA/ADATS for costs?

How much would it cost to buy a Squadron of Challenger 2s/Abrams/Leo IIs?
To maintain them?
To Ship and Operate them?

If you can show, for example that a small squadron of tanks is better value than a large squadron of MGS's and TUA's, or that the relative cost is small, then you take one more argument against taking them out of service away from the bureaucrats.  The public can understand that.    The"Powers" keep arguing that the reason you don't have kit is that they can't afford it.  If you can take that argument away then they will have to start arguing policy --- and that can get them into trouble with their "Allies", a lot more influential body for some politicians than even the taxpayer/voter.
 
Kirkhill said:
With respect to all here, I am not advocating getting rid of tanks.   I am not advocating getting rid of anything or for that matter buying anything.   I am suggesting that to assist in getting your point across to the public, and from them to the politicians, that you put a dollar figure on the capability you want/need and state what advantages it offers.

For example, with respect to tanks.

How much does it cost to maintain a Squadron of Leos and their crews?
How much does it cost to Ship and Operate a Squadron in Afghanistan?

How would it compare to a Squadron of MGS/TUA/ADATS for costs?

How much would it cost to buy a Squadron of Challenger 2s/Abrams/Leo IIs?
To maintain them?
To Ship and Operate them?

If you can show, for example that a small squadron of tanks is better value than a large squadron of MGS's and TUA's, or that the relative cost is small, then you take one more argument against taking them out of service away from the bureaucrats.   The public can understand that.     The"Powers" keep arguing that the reason you don't have kit is that they can't afford it.   If you can take that argument away then they will have to start arguing policy --- and that can get them into trouble with their "Allies", a lot more influential body for some politicians than even the taxpayer/voter.

Agree 100%....but until the CF cleans up their accounting structures, I think the likelihood of getting those numbers is somewhere between slim and nil.



Matthew.   :-\
 
Can't put a price on a crewmens head.

Actually CFL I could you argue you already have.  You signed on.....

That concept is as flawed as the notion that we can afford top of the line health care for all for free.

Everything is about risk, taking risks, reducing risks and how much reduction in risk can we afford. Based on that mean-spirited, hard-hearted, bloodless calculation the Government then asks for volunteers willing to accept the risk.

Cheers,  and sorry to be a ba****rd about it but that is exactly what is entailed in joining the army and going places where people shoot at you.
 
I'd like to believe that the gov't holds the best interests of its soldiers at heart.  I've got no problem serving but please give me the best equipment we can get to get the job done.  Reducing risk thats the key.
 
"Actually CFL I could you argue you already have."  Sentence structure.

Dear oh Dear oh Dear.... how awfully naughty of me Basil.  Cheers CFL ;)
 
I'd like to believe that the gov't holds the best interests of its soldiers at heart.  I've got no problem serving but please give me the best equipment we can get to get the job done.  Reducing risk thats the key.

And on that note, we definitely agree..
 
WRT costs, the Government reportedly spent @$600 million for 66 MGS. Even adding in the spare parts bill, training and "support" costs into that figure, you still have spent about as much as you would for a "real" tank. (and this doesn't cover the TUA or ADATs versions either)

The business of how much it costs to send a sqn overseas is a bit of a red herring. It would be fantastically expensive to try to send a LAV combat team over by air (I believe the Americans calculate 25 C-17 chalks, and that is with 3 LAVs/plane), and the vehicles and crews would only have minimal stores.

Any serious deployment will go in by ship, and once you start planning on those lines, it doesn't matter if you are shipping LAVs or MERKAVAs. The savings of using medium and light forces are supposed to be achieved by reducing the logistics trail for mechanized formations, mostly fuel and spare parts. Ammunition is supposed to be saved through the use of "smart rounds" and enhanced situational awareness to shoot and kill things with minimal expenditures.

But we must be speaking the same language here. If the end result is to apply military power to suppress civil war and military insurrections, then you need to bring the biggest and most capable clubs to do the job. If you don't need to use them, even better! With current technology, light and medium forces do not fit the bill, however attractive they seem in terms of procurement, transportation or logistics costs. (A big "IF" by the way).

Light and medium forces do fit the bill to support heavy forces in general operations (flanking, screening, economy of force and exploiting come to mind), as well as operations in restrictive terrain (mountains and dense jungles). The IDF has demonstrated that heavy forces are quite valuable in Urban Ops, using a combination of Merkavas and Achzarits as the core of their combat teams striking into the West Bank.

So it all boils down to this: what is the "Peacekeeping Brigade" supposed to do? Once defined, how will they achieve these ends? The answer will probably look like "Canada's premier fighting formation" more than anything else.
 
Looks like this discussion has been picked up by the think tank radar and has spawned an article specifically about the PM's proposed peacekeeping briagade and your thoughts on this:

Clone  the  Soldier!  How  will  Canada  Raise  and  Use  the
5000  troops  required  for  a  new  'Peacekeeping Brigade' ?
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-sr-pkb-intro.htm

CASR gives a good reference to Army.ca and this discussion particular:

*  These excerpts are taken from an  Army Discussion Group
(http://army.ca and specifically this topic http://army.ca/forums/threads/19908.75.html)
which all citizens should read from time to time.  Look  at  the  world  â “  and  our  country  â “        through  the  eyes  of  those  who  value  it  so  highly  that  they  are willing to kill and die  for  it.  All  they  ask  is  that  they  be  provided  with  the  resources        necessary  for  them  to  get  on  with  their  dangerous,  ugly,  necessary  job.        Remember,  they  are  primarily  soldiers.  Peacekeeping  is  a  specialty.
 
Hey, we're famous....

[funny, you said that as I was posting...]
 
Peacekeeping Brigade? Enough is enough. Man the liberals are out of touch with reality. Train for war and then you can also be trained for peacekeeping/peace enforcement/ implementation or security mission.
The left wingers in Canada need a good smack of reality in the face..
 
Military can't handle new troops, vice-admiral says
Canadian Press
Monday, Dec 6, 2004


Ottawa â ” The military does not have the resources to deal with thousands of extra recruits due to join its ranks, the second-in-command of Canada's armed forces says.

â Å“At the moment, no,â ? Vice-Admiral Ron Buck, the vice-chief of defence staff, told the Senate defence committee Monday when asked if the Canadian Forces has the facilities to house, train and equip another 5,000 troops.

Prime Minister Paul Martin promised during the spring election campaign to boost the military's ranks by 8,000 members, including 5,000 full-time soldiers and 3,000 reservists.

He also promised up to $3-billion over five years to enhance Canada's international stature, with most of the money going to defence.

Adm. Buck said any move aimed at increasing troop strength would have to include more spending.

â Å“Any proposals to move forward for the 5,000 from our perspective include a resourcing element,â ? he said. â Å“In other words, there is a bill that clearly needs to be paid in terms of personnel, equipment, training and housing.â ?

The Liberals have maintained that they want the military to concentrate on peacekeeping and nation-building initiatives to help failed states.

That is expected to be a focus of a new defence policy paper that has been in the works for months.

But Lewis Mackenzie, a retired general who commanded troops in some of the world's most dangerous places, warned that peacekeepers still need proper training and equipment to perform their duties.

Post-Cold War governments in Canada have pushed peacekeeping â Å“because it was cheap,â ? he told the committee.

Gen. Mackenzie said there is a public perception that peacekeeping is somehow less expensive, and even less dangerous, than combat.

â Å“In actual fact, in most of the missions we've been in, the potential was there to have to fight your way out,â ? he said.

He cited provincial reconstruction teams (PRTs) being proposed for Afghanistan as a perfect example of the need to properly equip soldiers.

â Å“If we send a modest force to protect (the PRT) ... then we had better have a guarantee from ISAF headquarters in Afghanistan that they have the capability to rescue those people when a warlord really gets angry with them and decides to take them out.â ?

Adm. Buck also told the committee that Canada needs to maintain its sovereignty in the North.

He suggested the federal government consider increasing funding in a number of areas to enhance surveillance by air and sea.

â Å“Ultimately, there probably would be a need for greater deployability in the Arctic,â ? he added.

That would mean buying or leasing larger aircraft to move equipment long distances, something the Liberals have frowned on when it comes to defence spending.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041206.wmili1206/BNStory/National/
 
Well, that was a "no-shit" point that most of us here on Army.ca picked up on long ago.  :D
 
The Liberals will say anything to stay in power.Our current Prime Minister is just as bad as the last one

        INDECISIVE!
 
It should certainly be a concern to the military, and to the Canadian public, when the Commons Defence Committee is "stunned" - after all, it is their duty to be aware and remain informed of the military situation.
Thus, of all people, the CDC should be the last ones to be surprised.
(as an aside, I loved the use of the word "sophistry" - marvelous!)

Troop boost 'will take five years'
No money to keep election promise, stunned defence committee told
 
Mike Blanchfield, The Ottawa Citizen, Tuesday, December 07, 2004

The Canadian Forces have not begun recruiting the 5,000 new troops promised by the Liberal government in the last election, and a lack of resources means they likely won't bring them on board for another five years, a Senate committee heard yesterday.

Vice-Admiral Ron Buck, the vice-chief of the defence staff, cited lack of government funding -- specifically for trainers and housing -- for the long delay.

The testimony from the second-in-command of the Forces stunned members of the Senate's committee on national security and defence.

Prime Minister Paul Martin promised the Forces 5,000 new full-time troops, along with 3,000 new part-time reservists, during last summer's heated election campaign, a promise that was criticized at the time as hasty and unworkable by some senior officers in the Forces.

After a thorough grilling by senators, Vice-Admiral Buck made clear the Forces would not be able to make good on that election promise unless defence spending is increased. He would not say how much more money the Forces need in next year's federal budget.

"It actually will not be possible to grow by 5,000 or 3,000 in the next three years. It will take a period greater than that," Vice-Admiral Buck testified. "It would be my anticipation that you'd be looking at a five or so years pace."

Several senators, including committee chairman Senator Colin Kenny, a Liberal, appeared stunned by the revelation.

"Did I understand you correctly, admiral, that it's going to take five years to increase the size of the Canadian Forces by 5,000?" he asked.

"Yes," Vice-Admiral Buck replied.

"Why?" Mr. Kenny shot back.

Vice-Admiral Buck said the Forces need to increase the number of personnel and equipment.

"In other words, there is a bill that clearly needs to be paid in terms of personnel, equipment, training and housing," he added.

Vice-Admiral Buck said the Forces have a plan to begin recruiting, but senior brass is simply waiting on the government to free up more funds so it can be implemented.

"It's not a slam dunk?" asked Conservative Senator Norman Atkins.

Vice-Admiral Buck reiterated that the government has said it will boost defence spending in the future, but that "within the resources that are assigned to the Canadian Forces today, we do not have the resources to recruit. We can't afford to recruit."

Liberal Senator Tommy Banks questioned why Vice-Admiral Buck and other senior officers don't speak out more forcefully about their frustration with the government's spending on defence.

"Somebody with credibility needs to jump up and down and say, 'we've got to stop this tap dancing,'" said Mr. Banks. "Shouldn't there be someone, in the position as you call it of 'senior leadership' in the Canadian Forces, who can stand up and holler and pound on the desk and say, 'this is sophistry. If we're going to do these jobs that you're giving us, you have to give us more resources, you have to pay more attention to this?' "

Vice-Admiral Buck said that unlike his counterparts in the U.S. and Britain, he and other senior leaders in the Canadian Forces are not allowed to air their opinions about defence funding in public.

"This country is different," he said. "We are constrained in our public statements. My position is not to advocate publicly. Mine is to explain government policy."

Vice-Admiral Buck is considered one of three front-runners to become Canada's military chief this summer when Gen. Ray Henault steps down to take up a senior post at NATO in Brussels.

He would not speculate on how the new troops could best be deployed. He said that would have to wait until the government completed its foreign policy and defence reviews, which are not to be tabled until the spring.

In other testimony, Auditor General Sheila Fraser said she would study the effectiveness of recruitment and report back to Parliament in April 2006.

Ms. Fraser said the Forces face large scale retirement of a large number of skilled officers, who may not be immediately replaceable, causing shortages in a number of specialized professions.
 
Prime Minister Paul Martin promised the Forces 5,000 new full-time troops, along with 3,000 new part-time reservists, during last summer's heated election campaign, a promise that was criticized at the time as hasty and unworkable by some senior officers in the Forces.

After a thorough grilling by senators, Vice-Admiral Buck made clear the Forces would not be able to make good on that election promise unless defence spending is increased. He would not say how much more money the Forces need in next year's federal budget.

You'd think that would be a nother "no shit" point.  I find it hard to beleive that even OUR government would be idiotic enough to beleive that we could recruit and train 8,000 soldiers without any aditional funding.
 
The testimony from the second-in-command of the Forces stunned members of the Senate's committee on national security and defence....

Several senators, including committee chairman Senator Colin Kenny, a Liberal, appeared stunned by the revelation.

"Did I understand you correctly, admiral, that it's going to take five years to increase the size of the Canadian Forces by 5,000?" he asked.

"Yes," Vice-Admiral Buck replied.

"Why?" Mr. Kenny shot back.

Why so stunned? People don't work for free in any other job. Does Mr. Kenny expect the forces to rub a lamp and have 5,000 fully equipped and trained soldiers with large trust funds to jump out in a puff of smoke?

Liberal Senator Tommy Banks questioned why Vice-Admiral Buck and other senior officers don't speak out more forcefully about their frustration with the government's spending on defence.
well...
... a promise that was criticized at the time as hasty and unworkable by some senior officers in the Forces.
Oh, I see, not listening = "but nobody said anything"

"Somebody with credibility needs to jump up and down and say, 'we've got to stop this tap dancing,'" said Mr. Banks. "Shouldn't there be someone, in the position as you call it of 'senior leadership' in the Canadian Forces, who can stand up and holler and pound on the desk and say, 'this is sophistry. If we're going to do these jobs that you're giving us, you have to give us more resources, you have to pay more attention to this?' "
There have been people like this in the past. The government has been quite effective at making them disappear.

Shouldn't there be some politician, in the positions of "senior leadership" in the government, with common sense enough to realize a broken plan when presented with one?

Vice-Admiral Buck said that unlike his counterparts in the U.S. and Britain, he and other senior leaders in the Canadian Forces are not allowed to air their opinions about defence funding in public.

"This country is different," he said. "We are constrained in our public statements. My position is not to advocate publicly. Mine is to explain government policy."

"But nobody in senior leadership jumped up and down or banged the table saying 'hey idiots, it's not gonna work!!!'"
They didn't? I'm shocked   ::)
 
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