PM's New Bde of Peacekeepers (5,000 new soldiers), could it be a SOC Light Force?
- Thread starter bossi
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Well I know one thing for sure about this whole situation!
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We have certainly got the SPACE for new soldiers! Heck, we've got more than thousands of miles to build a new base(s)!!!!
:blotto:
That's about all we've got at the moment, lots of space, trees, rocks, water and foliage...
That's all I believe we'll be seeing out of this promise for years to come. It will take ALOT of time+money+work.
Joe
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We have certainly got the SPACE for new soldiers! Heck, we've got more than thousands of miles to build a new base(s)!!!!
:blotto:
That's about all we've got at the moment, lots of space, trees, rocks, water and foliage...
That's all I believe we'll be seeing out of this promise for years to come. It will take ALOT of time+money+work.
Joe
Is anyone in the "know" think the PM and the MND has been briefed with the facts to as what he is proposing or is it all "smoke and mirrors" also to deploy this "Peace Keeping Brigade" takes heavy lift capability, we had problems getting the PPCLI battle group to Afghanistan.
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This is the kind of stuff that as far as I can see is totally missing from this equation. It is difficult to see how we could achieve this goal, for a whole host of reasons, in anything less than about five years of steady funding, growth, NCO/Officer training equipment influx and infrastucture development over and above what is required to run the Army now. What training demands would an additional Bde put on our trg system?
My guess is that this is not what it seems. Is there anybody on this thread who can offer us some insight? Cheers.
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What is the proposed time line? If its like 10 years then sure its possible. However you have to take into account the reiterments and pers getting out or transfering to another trade. My unit good easily fill postions for 200, however the infrastructure to support them and any families isn't there.
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Judging by the efficiency of the CFRC recruiting system, I could see us getting 5,000 extra bodies through by 2043.
Has anyone up high bothered to inquire if a recruiting and training system that has problems dealing with today's tempo could support a ramped up recruiting drive?
Has anyone up high bothered to inquire if a recruiting and training system that has problems dealing with today's tempo could support a ramped up recruiting drive?
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Here is another good candidate for the "But What About...?" List:
I have often wondered how it is intended to deal with mobilization, since to augment the CFRC's for national mobilization will require the same officers and senior NCOs everybody else will be screaming for. And, to the best of my knowledge, the CFRS has no Class A Reserve component to permit raoid expansion. Cheers.
I have often wondered how it is intended to deal with mobilization, since to augment the CFRC's for national mobilization will require the same officers and senior NCOs everybody else will be screaming for. And, to the best of my knowledge, the CFRS has no Class A Reserve component to permit raoid expansion. Cheers.
Jungle
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pbi, by CFRS i suppose you mean CFLRS ? If that is the case, then there are about 30 reservists working there now on contracts.
Another option for trg all these additional troops is to do like we did in the early 80s. The CF hired thousands of people in the YTEP program, and most of them were trained in the Regt'l Battle Schools. They had the same instructors for BMQ and MOC trg.
The recruiting system is a different story, back then the Reserves were recruited by the units.
Another option for trg all these additional troops is to do like we did in the early 80s. The CF hired thousands of people in the YTEP program, and most of them were trained in the Regt'l Battle Schools. They had the same instructors for BMQ and MOC trg.
The recruiting system is a different story, back then the Reserves were recruited by the units.
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A better idea might be to establish a defence policy that sorted out Canada's long term national defence needs. A "peacekeeping brigade?" Give me a break. Better use of the resources would be to increase the amount of paid days for reservists, encourage recruiting on a broader base and fund more and better training exercises. Resources allocated to the reserve "brigades" would be money much better spent. It is amazing to see how small some reserve units are and just how much operational experience is present in terms of the reserve soldier. There are reserve units in this country commanded by lieutenant colonels that don't even meet company strength. Put the resources into addressing that problem, not a public relations brigade.
It would also be nice if we developed the resources to actually move such a unit around. There is a lot of talk about airlift capability but we cannot move a major formation of any size without relying on the resources of the Americans or the Brits. I was at McChord AFB several years ago and I was watching a cabrac of Starlifters do touch and go takeoff and landing training - in the 24 or so aircraft participating there was more lift capability than in the whole CF. These capabilities are expensive, and there is not political will to do the right thing and create a balanced military that has clearly defined roles. The votes in BC still won't be going to the liberals.
It would also be nice if we developed the resources to actually move such a unit around. There is a lot of talk about airlift capability but we cannot move a major formation of any size without relying on the resources of the Americans or the Brits. I was at McChord AFB several years ago and I was watching a cabrac of Starlifters do touch and go takeoff and landing training - in the 24 or so aircraft participating there was more lift capability than in the whole CF. These capabilities are expensive, and there is not political will to do the right thing and create a balanced military that has clearly defined roles. The votes in BC still won't be going to the liberals.
McG
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We should start to grow now before we build any new units or formations. Even if soldiers get through the recruiting system before a plan is in place, we could over-size sections or an additional section in each Pl/Tp would allow the new guys to start building experience before we have to start a promotion spree to fill new leadership jobs higher up.
Kudos to the MND on this call.
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Roger that, but that wasn't what I was referring to. The Res employed on Class B in the various CFRCs do not represent an expansion capability: they are just filling existing holes. What I mean is the capacity to augment full time operations in an emergency by bringing on trained Class A Reservists to active duty, just as we do for Intl Ops or Dom Ops. To the best of my knowledge the CFRCs do not have this Reserve component. Perhaps, as you suggested with the YTEP example, they don't need it. If so, it would suggest to me that they must have excess capacity, which is a bit difficult to reconcile with the slowness of the system. Cheers.
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Wow, several years to raise a brigade. 
It's sure a good thing it isn't 1914 or 1939. Certainly Martin has once again revealed that he has no clue about the defence issue, but yikes, we'd sure be in trouble if there was ever another war; the mobilization plans must be amazing (if they exist...). These jokers should fund the units that are there and (broken record comment) develop a defence policy that makes some sense. :
There must some way to streamline recruiting, I have often heard comments about how slow the process is to bring someone on strength. Even taking people off supp list takes an inordinate amount of time.
It's sure a good thing it isn't 1914 or 1939. Certainly Martin has once again revealed that he has no clue about the defence issue, but yikes, we'd sure be in trouble if there was ever another war; the mobilization plans must be amazing (if they exist...). These jokers should fund the units that are there and (broken record comment) develop a defence policy that makes some sense. : There must some way to streamline recruiting, I have often heard comments about how slow the process is to bring someone on strength. Even taking people off supp list takes an inordinate amount of time.
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Its not like the PM can force people to join and you also have to take into account the kit needed to outfit a new Brigade (from stoves to veh). Also the infrastructure that needs to be in place (housing, job market, etc) for the families. Perhaps a more sound idea would be to take the proposed increase in manpower and spread it over the existing brigades that already exist. I believe it may have already been mentioned.
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The problem is that this isn't the only game in town for the military or for the Govt. In the two WW's we engaged in a vrey high degree of national mobilisation. However, it is worth remembering that while we were able assemble the people and (some) of the toys in fairly short order in 14 and 39, these "Bdes" were not worthy of the name until after a considerable amount of training and combat experience was under the belt.
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CFL said:
Ladies and gentlemen, please feel free to divide my two cents worth any way you see fit.
I'd almost be willing to bet money on this, except that all my disposable income is tied up in contributions to my CF reservist pension fund (a.k.a. Lotto 6/49).
Hmmm ... let me see ... where in the CF we already have a headquarters without a brigade ...?
(can you say "Joint Operations Group HQ" in Kingston ... ?)
Hmmm ... let me see ... is that anywhere close to our Peace Support Training Centre ... ?
(PSTC is already in Kingston, as well as LFDTS/DAT ... and Kingston's largest high school, RMC)
Hmmm ... let me see ... the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre in Cornwallis seems to have been sputtering lately ... I wonder whether Queen's and/or RMC would like to take it under their wing ... ?
(heck - as long as this is a pipe dream - don't ask what's in the pipe - why not just transplant PPC to Kingston, too - savings in airfare alone would more than pay for the move ...)
Hmmm ... let me see ... just down the road in Trenton is a reasonably good airhead, as well as an establishment that could be expanded to be their "battle school"
(i.e. CPC has been itching to become something larger than just a parachute school ...)
Hmmm ... let me see ... if they ever get around to building/buying those Navy ships that could carry troops and their equipment, I wonder if they could get to Kingston via the St Lawrence Seaway ... ?
Hmmm ... let me see ... could we benefit from being able to conduct "peacekeeper" training separate from warfighting (i.e. let 1, 2, and 5 Brigades and all the CBGs focus on warfighting ... ), or hire ourselves out to train other armies (i.e. under the auspices of U.N. subsidies, or pure "pay-per-view" contracts)? After all, Fort Drum is just across the river, if the US Army would like to enter into a partnership of any kind ...
Hmmm ... let me see ... Kingston is sorta halfway between Toronto and Montreal, too ...
(two fairly large commercial airports ... and Kingston's got a small airstrip already ...)
Geez - ya know, maybe I should buy a cheap briefcase and be a consultant
(I've already got a "power suit" ... no, not a Power Ranger suit, you morons ... !)
Oh, wait - what was I thinking? I'm not related to anybody in the federal Liberal party ...
Okay - cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of speculation ... !!!
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Careful bossi all that Hmmming can cause oxygen deprivation!!! Impairs judgement.....
In this case I think you wuz thinking purty good....
Following exceptions: -
Minus side - yup you can get ships into Lake Ontario, don't know for sure about Kingston, but can you get them out again in a hurry in February? Unless you're planning on getting some help from Global Warming (Keep in mind that the Brits and Euros are planning on spending MORE money on heating as a result of Global WARMING ----- ain't it funny how life's like that?)
Plus side - Montreal has got a lovely great under-utilized Airport with expansive hardstands and really long runways and Cargo handling capability and a Bell Helicopter Plant and NO CUSTOMERS. The Mirabel Bde? Or at least the Mirabel Storage Facility.
Good thoughts mate.
In this case I think you wuz thinking purty good....
Following exceptions: -
Minus side - yup you can get ships into Lake Ontario, don't know for sure about Kingston, but can you get them out again in a hurry in February? Unless you're planning on getting some help from Global Warming (Keep in mind that the Brits and Euros are planning on spending MORE money on heating as a result of Global WARMING ----- ain't it funny how life's like that?)
Plus side - Montreal has got a lovely great under-utilized Airport with expansive hardstands and really long runways and Cargo handling capability and a Bell Helicopter Plant and NO CUSTOMERS. The Mirabel Bde? Or at least the Mirabel Storage Facility.
Good thoughts mate.
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On the Lake Ontario issue, there was actually a feasibility study done and it wouldn't be that big a deal to dredge the Seaway so you could get larger ships all the way to Toronto/Hamilton.
What I believe killed the plan was Quebecois opposition that such an open seaway would bypass Montreal and its monopoloy of getting imported goods into Ontario.
Matthew.
What I believe killed the plan was Quebecois opposition that such an open seaway would bypass Montreal and its monopoloy of getting imported goods into Ontario.
Matthew.
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Nice idea there Mark, but forget: never happen ...
The staff wallahs in NDHQ crunched the numbers for the PMO on the proposed new "peacekeeping" brigade this summer and after the Liberals regained consciousness from the sticker shock they reluctantly agreed to add the 5,000 to the existing understrength bdes.
The staff wallahs in NDHQ crunched the numbers for the PMO on the proposed new "peacekeeping" brigade this summer and after the Liberals regained consciousness from the sticker shock they reluctantly agreed to add the 5,000 to the existing understrength bdes.
