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Politics in 2015

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Colin P said:
.... I spent 20 years paying to the education system with no stake in it. Then I had kids who are moving through that education ....
I don't have kids, but I don't mind paying taxes for education because it helps the next cohort do better*, thus being able to pay taxes into the future.

* - At least potentially, anyway - whether it's doing that or not is a different question very much open to debate.
 
Colin P said:
Each generation tries to add to the mix, my parents generation earned a free ride, but didn't get it, they buckled down and kept on building. I benefited by getting a decent education. Then I spent 20 years paying to the education system with no stake in it. Then I had kids who are moving through that education. I'm pretty healthy, so i pay more for healthcare than I use for now. But in a decade that may change. for a society to function your supposed to think beyond your own wants and needs and try to give more than you receive. If everyone or most people plays by those rules then things work.

This is all completely irrelevant from the idea of "we're not having enough kids to pay the bills when we aren't taxpayers." There is absolutely no reason we can't manage our tax money in a manner that, if everyone stopped having kids tomorrow, by the time the last Canadian died off of old-age, there would still be money in the pot. It's called living within your means and everyone seems to be able to do it fairly well when its their own money but not when it's someone else's.

Colin P said:
for a society to function your supposed to think beyond your own wants and needs and try to give more than you receive. If everyone or most people plays by those rules then things work.

But that is not what people do. What people do is take other people's money and donate it to whatever "wants" they have, in many cases it is regardless of its utility. There is no moral high ground in using the government to donate other people's money when most people aren't willing to donate their own money or time.


Brad Sallows said:
We would be relying on future generations to be present in enough numbers to run things.  No amount of money can make someone materialize in your room when you press a call button.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If we had less Canadians, we'd need less to "run things." The argument is always (and has been so far in this thread) that without more young people, the current taxpayers won't have enough people to pay taxes when they are too old to work. This is only a problem because of the crap job we have done at governing.
 
>I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If we had less Canadians, we'd need less to "run things."

I'm saying that until we achieve that magical "less Canadians" future, there is going to be a huge cohort of old people - the "baby boomers" - moving through their "need lots of health care and assisted living" phase, and that will taper off gradually.  If the number of service providers is too few, who gets first dibs: the people with the most money (those who did not pay the costs of raising children would generally have an advantage), or the people who contributed to the pool of service providers?

The Liberals are going to keep backing away from their election promises - no surprise there.  I have speculated before about the federal government getting caught moving in the wrong direction with its fiscal policy when "events" transpire to really knock the pins out from under the economy.  It's still too early to tell, though.

The fundamental problem is the return to an earlier mode of thinking: a debt-to-GDP ratio below a certain level is viewed by some as "room to spend".  Balancing a budget isn't even on the radar for either the new federal government or the AB government.
 
Rex Murphy in the National Post:

Rex Murphy: The Liberal government does not have the right to unilaterally change our voting system

The Liberal government does not have the right to change Canada’s voting system without first holding a referendum. The notion that we can fundamentally alter our democracy without subjecting the change to a full public consultation is simply wrong, as voting is not a privilege granted by a political party to the people — it is the people who vest power, for a limited time, in a political party. It is up to the voters to decide how they shall choose which party to give that power to.

Who we choose is inextricably linked to how we make that collective choice. Those who own the ultimate power of choice should not have the boundaries of how they choose set, or the rules governing their choice imposed, from without. Changing the method by which we elect politicians must be consented to by those who elect them — the voters themselves. Voters own the power of choice and the power over the rules by which they make their choice.

In the exuberance over their victory, the Liberals may feel that somehow, just by displacing former prime minister Stephen Harper’s Conservatives, they, in the manner of ancient Chinese emperors, have the mandate of heaven. Fortunately for us, it is really not all that clear that heaven has much to do with Canadian politics. In fact, reviewing some of the governments and politicians we have variously elected — federal, provincial and municipal — it’s more plausible to figure that influence flows from that other, somewhat toastier jurisdiction.

The current government owes its good fortune to 39.62 per cent of the popular vote in the recent election. Harper’s government, in the election before that, owed its good fortune to 39.47 per cent of the vote. Under the old laws of political logic — those who were so rudely kept out of power during the Harper interregnum — that low percentage was too frequently interpreted as meaning that over 60 per cent of the Canadian people voted against him. And that slippery logic was enhanced by the assertion that, due to this fact, his government was really not “democratic” and thus did not have full legitimacy.

However, now that we have a Liberal government elected by almost an identical percentage of voters, it means quite the opposite: that this government speaks with the voice of the true Canada and is quite simply a shining manifestation of all that is good about Canada herself. Conservatives at 39 per cent — bagpipes at midnight; Liberals at 39 per cent — midsummer noon.

The oscillation in logic is a full 180 degrees and rests on the airy foundations of partisan self-regard and raw, unsupported assertion. Neither this government, nor any other, has the moral right to change the electoral process without prior consultation through a referendum approved by the voters. As it is, after all, the people whose sovereign power of election is the essence of any democratic system.

However, it is really not enough for the Liberals to say, now that they’re in power, that what would have been seen as deplorable, arrogant and an attack on democracy under Harper’s rule, is sweet, reasonable and much to be desired under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s. Changing the tenant of 24 Sussex does not reverse the order of nature or politics, even if those in Trudeau’s court are showing a marked tendency to regard their election as a victory, not for their party – which it was — but for the country itself.

We see that attitude most cloyingly in the repeated Trudeau boast that “Canada is back” — a slogan that’s saccharine and weirdly jingoistic at the same time.

It must be charming to look in the mirror, or an iPhone on a stick, and see Canada staring back, but at best it’s an optical delusion; at worst a self-indulgent hubris. Canada is not the Liberal party, and electing a Liberal government with 39 per cent of the vote should not be identified, and certainly not by the Liberals themselves, as a rescue of the Canadian soul. The Liberal party is, just like the Conservative party and the New Democratic Party, a partisan vehicle. It is not Canada.

So the idea of unilaterally making a decision to change our voting system without a full debate and a referendum is just simply wrong. It is not a government’s choice to make. It is the people’s choice.

National Post

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-the-liberal-government-does-not-have-the-right-to-unilaterally-change-our-voting-system

The best line, and it was only a caption on one of the pictures, was that Harper would have been labelled a tyrant if he were to propose the same thing - why is the MSM giving the Liberals a pass on this?
 
Quite right. The chosen do not get to determine the method of their choosing.
 
The Globe and Mail is now reporting (can't link to the page, as you need an account) the Liberals will not hold a referendum on electoral reform, and will let Parliament (Liberal Majority is only 39.62% of popular vote) decide how we should run our next election. This is literally giving the inmates the key to the asylum. This one time, I hope the Tory majority in the Senate kills/kicks this bill back to the Commons with a requirement for a referendum. Political parties should not have a choice in how elections are run.

Also very telling, is that CBC and CTV are not carrying the story. This would have been plastered all over the front page, with the percentage of Harper's majority in bold font had the Tories tried to do it. This is how despots and dictators are installed, they change the rules of elections so that no one else can win.
 
PuckChaser said:
Also very telling, is that CBC and CTV are not carrying the story. This would have been plastered all over the front page, with the percentage of Harper's majority in bold font had the Tories tried to do it. This is how despots and dictators are installed, they change the rules of elections so that no one else can win.

I suspect it isn't much of a story yet because they never promised a referendum.  They always stated they would make the changes through an all party consensus process.  I guess it will depend on how smoothly that goes. As well it will likely be story when we get to it.  Right now the MSM is focussed on year end reviews and what's ahead as is the case every year.

The conservatives were accused of the same thing with their changes to elections act.  I think it's a bit hyperbolic on all sides when they cry dictatorship.  The fact is that our system is designed to be an elected dictatorship if a party gets a majority, so nothing new.

If the public cares enough they might make an about face and go to the people but who knows.  I'll be curious to see what they come up with first.
 
Remius said:
I suspect it isn't much of a story yet because they never promised a referendum.  They always stated they would make the changes through an all party consensus process.  I guess it will depend on how smoothly that goes. As well it will likely be story when we get to it.  Right now the MSM is focussed on year end reviews and what's ahead as is the case every year.

The conservatives were accused of the same thing with their changes to elections act.  I think it's a bit hyperbolic on all sides when they cry dictatorship.  The fact is that our system is designed to be an elected dictatorship if a party gets a majority, so nothing new.

If the public cares enough they might make an about face and go to the people but who knows.  I'll be curious to see what they come up with first.

The Conservatives never cooked the books on how we elect members, so they would stay elected indefinitely. They required people to prove they were eligible to vote, instead of the other way around. Asking for more ID is not an attack on democracy. Changing the way we vote without asking the populace of the country is, especially when you hold the power to ram bills through the house.

The Liberals are also not promising an all-party consensus. Putting a vote through the House where they have a majority and will be whipped into support for the bill is not all-party support.
 
PuckChaser said:
The Conservatives never cooked the books on how we elect members, so they would stay elected indefinitely. They required people to prove they were eligible to vote, instead of the other way around. Asking for more ID is not an attack on democracy. Changing the way we vote without asking the populace of the country is, especially when you hold the power to ram bills through the house.

The Liberals are also not promising an all-party consensus. Putting a vote through the House where they have a majority and will be whipped into support for the bill is not all-party support.

No they did promise that.

https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/electoral-reform/

Now how they achieve that and whether they keep the promise is while other ball of wax.

The fair elections act did more than just change the ID requirements.  The CPC also rammed it through the house by using time allocation, skipping committee, limiting debate and ramroded it through the senate.  The sort of thing you are saying the liberals will do.  If they do that, I'll cry foul along with you.

A referendum will really get what proportion of the population out? Most people outside of Ottawa aren't really that interested one way or the other.  I suspect you'd get a 40-50 percent turnout for this and that's being optimistic.  Not too mention the cost. 

Many countries, that far from dictatorships have adopted alternative voting systems.  I tend to think that ouR FPTP system needs some changes and updating. 
 
Remius said:
A referendum will really get what proportion of the population out? Most people outside of Ottawa aren't really that interested one way or the other.  I suspect you'd get a 40-50 percent turnout for this and that's being optimistic.  Not too mention the cost. 

So because you don't think there will be voter turnout, we just toss democratic process out the window? No government has the right to change how we elect members when they're in power and can force legislation through.

You're honestly content with a party claiming they speak for a majority of Canadians WRT a new electoral process when they only had 39.62% of 68.49% of eligible voters actually cast a ballot for them? 27% of Canadians get to decide on the next electoral process, when they don't even know what it is? People who voted Liberal voted for electoral reform. Not a specific type. "Real change" doesn't mean carte blanche to do whatever the $@#! he wants.
 
PuckChaser said:
So because you don't think there will be voter turnout, we just toss democratic process out the window? No government has the right to change how we elect members when they're in power and can force legislation through.

You're honestly content with a party claiming they speak for a majority of Canadians WRT a new electoral process when they only had 39.62% of 68.49% of eligible voters actually cast a ballot for them? 27% of Canadians get to decide ...
Well, that is how our democratic process works.  The Conservatives did not need a referendum for anything they did in power, and now neither do the Liberals need o use referendums?  Don't like it?  Then I guess you actually are a supporter for a reform.

 
MCG said:
Well, that is how our democratic process works.  The Conservatives did not need a referendum for anything they did in power, and now neither do the Liberals need o use referendums?  Don't like it?  Then I guess you actually are a supporter for a reform.

I think there is a fair difference between electoral reform vs normal legislation. As was already said, our system basically allows us to elect somewhat of a dictatorship, I'm relatively okay with this because whoever is at the helm needs to be able to get s**t done, so I don't care a whole lot about bashing bills through. I fully expect the Liberals to bash bills through the process that screw me over (such as firearms legislation), but it will be the content of the bill that I criticize, not the getting things done part.

But electoral reform is a different thing. To be honest, I am kind of baffled that the constitution doesn't make it harder than this to make such a fundamental change. I would have thought how governments gets elected would have been written into the constitution somewhere (it is for pretty much every constitution I've ever seen), and it would require an amendment to the constitution if you wanted to mess around with that.
 
Completely agree.

The way some are arguing here, is that we should have let Quebec separate if a majority of their MPPs voted to do so. I expect a similar Supreme Court challenge if the Liberals try to change something so fundamental to our society. Multiple provinces realized they should not change voting systems without a referendum, and to address the cost aspect, very easy to add a question on the ballot of the next federal election, cost almost neutral.
 
While discussing electoral reform, it is critical to keep two ideas in mind: input legitimacy, and output legitimacy.

Remius defends the Liberals using only input legitimacy as a measure.  They didn't promise a referendum; they hold a majority in the House; they can pass whatever legislation they please.

Ignoring output legitimacy (practical outcomes and perception thereof), however, will have adverse consequences and is likely to strain the nation.

There is no dressing the issue up in terms of "fairness", "reform", "making all votes count", etc - those are all polite noises and rationalizations to deflect attention from what is intended.  It is a political manoeuvre to create a long-term advantage which heavily favours the Liberals.  They don't want a PR scheme; they want a vote ranking scheme.  The reasoning is straightforward: the LPC, roughly occupying the ideological ground between NDP and CPC in what is essentially a three-party system, expect to be the beneficiary of more second votes than the other parties.  That is all.

If the 30-40% of Canadians who prefer a CPC government do not experience one often enough, social cohesion will be reduced, ill feelings will accumulate, and the nation will fail.  I expect the magnitude of the eventual crisis to be greater than anything we have experienced due to Quebec nationalism.

Add: From an article Andrew Potter wrote at macleans.ca Two Concepts of Legitimacy about the 2008 coalition. 

"...the requirement, ultimately, that the output of an institution be acceptable to the people. Both forms of legitimacy are important, but there is the question of priority. Normally, we tend to think that IL [input legitimacy] determines OL [output legitimacy]: That is, we accept the outcome of an election, or a vote in parliament, or what have you, because it has high input legitimacy. To put it another way, as long as the rules are followed we accept the result.

But it is not that simple, and in the end, I’m inclined to think that output legitimacy has priority. That is, a certain institutional design will only be (input) legitimate to the extent to which it tends on the whole  (note the hedging here) to produce acceptable (that is, output-legitimate) outcomes."
 
PuckChaser said:
Completely agree.

The way some are arguing here, is that we should have let Quebec separate if a majority of their MPPs voted to do so. I expect a similar Supreme Court challenge if the Liberals try to change something so fundamental to our society. Multiple provinces realized they should not change voting systems without a referendum, and to address the cost aspect, very easy to add a question on the ballot of the next federal election, cost almost neutral.

And it may very well come to that. As we've seen with badly crafted legislation in the last mandate. 
 
Remius said:
Many countries, that far from dictatorships have adopted alternative voting systems.  I tend to think that ouR FPTP system needs some changes and updating.

Ok and do you think changing and updating means giving one party sole power without the will of the people?

By the logic you have written, you basically argue because they have a majority they can do whatever they want even if it is against the will of the people (that sounds very similar to a Mr. Hitler). You have completely forgotten what the purpose of a democracy is, which is to represent the will of the people. By not holding this change to a referendum it shows the Liberal Party of Canada has no respect for our democratic traditions, and the people it rules. If they are so confident in this being the best system why not hold a referendum unless they are afraid that the people will see through the lies.

The Liberals argue the current system is unfair because parties can have a majority with only 39ish percent of the vote (Conservatives had 38%, Liberals 39.5%). Their solution is to make it so only one party can have a majority with 39% of the vote, their party. If they were truly serious about creating a equal voting system we would be looking at something like percentage based voting or some other system similar to that.

How does changing the system to one which would have given the Liberals MORE seats for the same number of votes seem fair to you?

Personally I like FPTP as it gives regional representation. The problems with this 'shared voting/multiple voting' system is it is even less representative of what the people want/voted for. Basically it gives some people two votes and tells others your vote doesn't matter. The problems with percentage based voting is you lose the regional representation, and it also can create tons of fringe parties, which can be a good or bad thing. Not to mention that since you only vote for a party, the party decides who gets to represent you, not you yourself (like with FPTP).

To me this proposed change scares me. It could truly be the death of democracy in our country, and it will be done under the guise of good governance.
 
One of the things I like about the FPTP system is that politicians, particularly Liberal and NDP types, don't like it.  Apparently it doesn't produce a predictable outcome.

I like that.

Something should always be left to chance.  Even if it meant a chunk of Parliament was decided on a throw of the dice.

The rules are the rules and they should not change the character of the game.  In Canada we expect our politicians to play Rugby.  I don't want them deciding they would rather play Badminton instead.
 
I have never liked the concept of proportional representation. I used to like the idea of ranked ballots (first/second/third choice), but no longer do.

Our current system is not perfect. No system is.

There is one reason why I now prefer to keep it is because it ensures a change of government every few years.

And governments, even ones for which I vote, need changing every few years.

That is the only way to keep them at least pseudo-honest.
 
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