Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

[Radop]

well said MM.  I think as well that the general public has taken a more active role in what we do as a military.  As little as 5 yrs ago, I think a lot of people didn't care about our military.  911 changed all that and people realized that we do have a real role to play in Canada and abroad.  If we are a joke as an army how can the rest of the world take us serious as a nation.  With more interest in the military, comes more exposure to how the military treats it soldiers who return home from peacekeeping/enforcing/making or war.  The military had to adjust and not just tell their soldiers to suck it up and soldier on!

Maybe the press isn't so bad ther Col Lebay (I know Spelling)

 

[Infanteer]

I think this topic has the potential to be good being that we have some members who have dealt with this matter personally.

Seeing how it is a Forces wide phenomenon, I'm moving it to the general forum.  I'm taking down the poll however, as it isn't really critical to the discussion, it may prove to be a distraction with people squabbling over which mission was "harder" and, as Gunner pointed out, PTSD is a problem we have to deal with on any operation.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Right on Infanteer.

This is definitely a topic that has to be seen, discussed, recognized, and helped.

The old proverbial "Patton Slap" still exists as an attitude in our Military, I know, I did it myself.

tess

 

[Art Johnson]

Tess tell me it isn't so. I have taken the odd guy behind the barracks and talked to him but have not had to resort to physical violence.

I was at an NCO School in Korea, I had allready been through two of them in Canada, but this school was run by a bunch of clowns. I believe I lasted all of two weeks when I asked for a RTU. The Adjutant and the CO wanted to know why so I told them. That night one of the Camp Staff came to me and said that one of the instructors wanted to see me behind the tent lines. When I arrived the instructor and some of his buddies were there waiting for me. At the time i hadn't noticed that a chap by name of Corcoran of the Royal Welch Fusiliers had followed me out. The instructor told me what he thought of me and I replied in kind. He thensaid take a swing at me and I replied "You invited me out here you take the first swing then I will kick the shit out of you." that was the end of the situation. This chap Corcoran seem to me to be such a quiet unassuming person  he didn't seem he would say boo. I found out later that he kicked the shit out of three Patricias in nothing flat. My point is be damn careful who you invite outside.

 

[the 48th regulator]

More in the sense of the verbal slap as opposed to the Physical.

Hey I have done it.  Look around the forces, or even on forums like this and you Will hear of people talking about how some guy uses it as an excuse to get a pension.  No doubt there are some that do use the ptsd as a way to get a bit of gravy, but if they want to go through all the bs of the red tape, have at 'er.

I know of the shite I have had to deal with regarding my physical jazz and the DVA, and I look at the new mountain I have to climb regarding the disorder, and you know what?  I want to say eff that....I am happy where I am at and don't want to deal with all of the explaining, tests, third degree etc etc.

And who suffers, me, my family, and any other troop that is going through it as well.

Lead by Example. . . . .the 4th principle of leadership according to the little card issued to me....Should I lead the example and seek help, so that not only I find the help, but others will follow with their challenges...

Or should we just criticize the cheaters, scare the suffering, and kid ourselves that all is ok and the system does not fail us, as they are getting better at recognizing and treating this disorder for us.

Dunno, just my late night rant...

Dileas

tess

 

[Art Johnson]

Tess you and I have spoke about this before, don't let the BASTARDS grind you down. I'll get back to you.

Aye Dileas

 

[pipesnake]

The nearest I got to combat was Oka, (Mercier Bridge Montreal to be specific), and taking a few rounds of friendly fire around me during some live fire training. I have no issues of PTSD.

I did face some other issues when I got out however. Particularly two things which I have never really spoken about and I have no idea why I feel the need to right now.

One, I felt very guilty about seeing my friends going to Somalia and Bosnia without me being there with them. I felt like I let them down. This took some time to get over and I still have those feelings to this day from time to time.

Secondly I was not well adjusted to civilian life when I left the infantry. I went to college. I didn't start to speak to people there for several months. I had an attitude that I was better than them. That they didn't deserve my respect. I was young and arrogant. I still had the very aggressive tendencies that are developed as an infantry soldier. I took me a long time to adjust and once again become normally social. I don't think the army does a good job in preparing young infantry soldiers for release to the general public. It's somewhat akin to setting the wolves among the sheep.

 

[Radop]

One, I felt very guilty about seeing my friends going to Somalia and Bosnia without me being there with them. I felt like I let them down. This took some time to get over and I still have those feelings to this day from time to time.

Secondly I was not well adjusted to civilian life when I left the infantry. I went to college. I didn't start to speak to people there for several months. I had an attitude that I was better than them. That they didn't deserve my respect. I was young and arrogant. I still had the very aggressive tendencies that are developed as an infantry soldier. I took me a long time to adjust and once again become normally social. I don't think the army does a good job in preparing young infantry soldiers for release to the general public. It's somewhat akin to setting the wolves among the sheep.

I know when I was in the infantry, I wanted to do everything with the people in my platoon.  We went to movies together and out for coffee, etc.  I think that feeling a loss when your comrades go away without you, especially into harms way is a natural reaction.

I believe your second point is why the military has started allowing soldiers who plan to release whether getting out after 1st, 2nd BE or during their IE can go to the SCAN sessions.

 

[Veterans son]

Radop

Thank you for starting this topic.
As someone who has never been in the CF(let alone been on tour),
the topic helps me try to appreciate the stress CF personnel
go through on tour.
I can never really understand(having never served)but thank you
to those who served/are serving in the CF.

My father was a double veteran(WW2 and Korea).
What sort of support services were available to those
returning from war?

Thank you to Mr. Johnson ,Tess and others who have contributed
to this topic!

Sincerely,
Mike
whose father served with the RCE in WW2 and the Korean War

 

[Art Johnson]

It is difficult to reconcile today's Army and DVA to that which existed after WW II and Korea. At that time we still had large Veterans hospitals. Sunnybrook in North York had one block, "D", dedicated to what were refered to as sycho cases. PSTD was more or less described as Shell Shock. The treatments were varied particularly for those who were extremely disfigured. Shortly after I left Sunnybrook a young chap who had served with The RCR in Italy committed suicide, he had lost most of his face and had been in Sunnybrook for about 10 years undergoing facial reconstuction and councilling but finally gave up the fight.
Another chap from The RCR worked in the limb factory he had had his lower jaw shot away and always wore a thick bandage around where his jaw would have been. He was fortunate that he had a loving wife to help him survive.

 

[Veterans son]

Thank you for your reply, Mr. Johnson!
This is an important topic to discuss, in my opinion!

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hi Veterans son

This may help you and your father, I know that the Scarborough Office of the V.A, handles many Vets from WW2 and Korea for PTSD.  They use and excellent Doctor that specializes in this disorder for soldiers of that time period.

Maybe you should contact that office, if you live inthe east edn of Toronto, that is.

tess

 

[Veterans son]

Hello Tess

Thanks for your reply!
Sadly, my father passed away 3.5 years ago.
Dad never talked much about his service in WW2 and Korea.
I was just wondering what sort of counselling was available for
those veterans who had PTSD.
I don't believe that my father had PTSD though.

Thank you again for your reply and your contributions to this
important topic!

Sincerely,
Mike

 

[medicineman]

It's sad to say, but the Canadian Army hasn't really dealt well with mental health problems up until recently.  One just needs to delve back into history - the First World War was a real eye opener for many and it took until nearly the end of it for "shell shock" and other terms to not be viewed as cowardice.  Lessons learned - well they were and then filed in Drawer 13 in time for the Second World War, when all those lessons had to be revisited and relearned.  Again, it took awhile.  Korea  - haven't a clue about, as I haven't seen any literature about that.  Other conflicts and ops Canada has been involved in, I've either experienced some or seen the results of.  Even in the last 10 years there's been a big change, though there was a time when it was changing, then became something that went by the wayside either for lack of funding, knowledge or GAFF.  Now it's more of  a priority.  As far as counselling, I doubt there was much counselling for any of the folks that came back from those conflicts.  I know my late grandfather, who fought in France and Burma/India in the Second World War was affected by some of what he saw.  He'd talk about an awful lot, even tell you he had killed a few people, but would clam up about certain things, like liberating POW camps in Burma.  At that time, things like that were things you saw and then just dealt with by yourself and/or took out on others. 

MM

 

[the 48th regulator]

 

C B C . C A    N e w s    -    F u l l    S t o r y :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


$222 million for Canadian health research announced
Last Updated Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:23:48 EST
CBC News
CALGARY - Canadian health researchers will receive $222 million in grants for 571 projects ranging from mental health issues of peacekeeping to the science behind a potential migraine treatment.

"We want a Canada that's a world leader in developing and applying the groundbreaking technologies of the 21st century," Prime Minister Paul Martin said at the funding announcement at the University of Calgary on Monday.

 
Paul Martin listens as Gerald Zamponi explains his research on a potential migraine treatment as University of Calgary President Dr. Harvey Weingarten looks on.  
"We want Canada to be a world leader in creating high-quality jobs to keep our bright young people at home," said Martin. "We cannot accomplish that without a strong commitment to science ... and basic research."

This year's grants from the Canadian Institute for Health Research are up from $180 million last year, which funded 437 projects. The funding also supports graduate students and post-doctoral research fellows.

Martin toured the laboratory of neurobiologist Gerald Zamponi, who is studing calcium channels. Zamponi's research could lead to new treatments for neurological problems such as migraines that affect more than 3.5 million Canadians.

Psychiatrist Jitender Sareen of the University of Manitoba will study how to improve mental health treatment programs for Canadian soldiers.

One in five soldiers may suffer post-traumatic stress disorder, according to military ombudsman Andre Marin, who has criticized the Forces' handling of the condition.

Other projects target diseases that grabbed headlines, such as C. difficile. The bacteria were blamed for more than 100 deaths among hospital patients since 2001.

Researchers in Western Canada will benefit from more than $56 million, including $26 million in Alberta, said Federal Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh.





Copyright ©2005 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved  

Hmm the Government has finally decided to take a step forward.  Hopefully this will be in time for when our next generations serves (Sarcasm)

At least it is a step in the right direction.

tess

 

[T.S.Rea]

An important point that should be raised concerning the issue of PTSD is that a critical component of treatment for condition must come from the people you serve with.

I have no doubt a general condition called PTSD exists, some events or similar patterns of events causing some acutely imbalanced patterns of neuron firing in the old grey matter.  It is no different than any other type of injury.  Accept it, respect it, deal with it.

However, putting unthinking faith into the psychiatric profession to provide a full solution is asking for trouble.  Psychiatry is an industry like any other with thousands of career-oriented professionals and a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry behind it.  Much of the posts in this forum lament the state of our armed forces and how screwy much of it is, psychiatry is no less screwed up.  As like the military, many don't give a ..., many don't have the time or skill to do much, and most dangerous of all are those that have convinced themselves of their own competence and are quite willing to prove it at your expense.  I have been the unfortunate victim of this profession, and could offer a hundred stories of the appalling stupidity of the 'experts' in the field along with a dearth of credible third-party cross-verification.  When you read '1 in 5 soldiers' or '$222 million in grants', remember the Mobile Grave System, Dieppe, etc., and who is directly gaining from it.

Studying military history aids in the development of soldiering skills, but it will never make anyone the infallible expert on the subject.  If you were given a new bit of kit, say the new XC-2151 Proton-Laser Death Atomizer, it does not hurt to understand a little or a lot about its inner workings, but ultimately you and the members of your unit have to figure out how best to use it.  The success or failure of it depends on what you do with the knowledge you have, only a modest portion of that knowledge (along with erroneous information) comes from the scientist that built the damn thing, and most of the useful knowledge will come from a range of people directly or indirectly involved with it.

Serious stuff, you earthly existence is not blessed, and life is far too short.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Can a doc type tell me the technical difference between Critical Stress Reaction and PTSD?  I feel that we may be over-diagnosing...

Dave

 

[pbi]

Dave: While we await for the doctor to get here, here is my take. CSR is much more immediate and usually short-term. It will be experienced by a far greater proportion of people exposed to an incident-almost all of us will show some aspects of it. But, for most us, it will pass. (Grossman talked to us about this at the PPCLI LS this week). PTSD, as I understand it, develops later, after the incident(s) and after CSR. Only a relatively small percentage of those exposed will develop it, although there is some evidence that there are both indicators for vulnerabiilty and good ways to reduce the chances of developing it. It is not just a temporary "reaction": it is a "disorder". I stand to be corrected on all of this.

Cheers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Pbi - yeah, thats what I tohought the difference was. I still have this nagging feeling that we are too quick to diagnose PTSD - and I am in no way denigrating the concept of the disorder, the requirement (indeed moral imperative) to treat it, nor those who suffer from it.

 

[alfie]

I have been experiencing some PTSD effects lately, been out over 25 years now. Noticed some help available guessing through Vet Affairs?