Presidential election may be up for grabs

[PMedMoe]

If we want to get really nasty about who is actually a commie we could ask why McCain chose to remain in a POW camp for five years when he was offered frequent attempts to leave.

Yes, and the price for leaving?  Saying that your country was wrong and to throw away everything you believed in and/or fought for.  IMHO, he did not choose to remain in a POW camp.

 

[aesop081]

If we want to get really nasty about who is actually a commie we could ask why McCain chose to remain in a POW camp for five years when he was offered frequent attempts to leave.   

From someone who has never served a day  :

 

[stegner]

STEGNER, Lt.Comdr. McCain stayed in the Hanoi Hilton because
he did not wish to let down his comrades,something you as a
civilian student would never understand.
                                      Regards

So the 32 propaganda tapes he made with the Vietnamese didn't let his comrades down?

Yes, and the price for leaving?  Saying that your country was wrong and to throw away everything you believed in and/or fought for.  IMHO, he did not choose to remain in a POW camp.

He said those very things in the 32 propaganda tapes.  Perhaps you are right.  Maybe he was never offered a chance to leave.    Why let a huge propaganda prize leave? 

 

[aesop081]

Stegner, when your little smug ass has completed some form of SERE training, then you can come on here and be a critic.

For now, STFU

 

[Trinity]

Wow Stegner,  that man is a hero.  I can't recite properly the honourable reasons that he stayed
but Wikipedia can (as much as I hate wikipedia, HOWEVER, they have links to back up their facts)

Note the BOLD part below.  It explains clearly why he refused. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

Prisoner of war

John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[30][31] McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned, when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[30] After he regained consciousness, a crowd attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him.[30] Lieutenant Commander McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".[31]
McCain being pulled from Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi and becoming a POW[32] on October 26, 1967

Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information, and he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.[33] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.[34][35]

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[30] Now having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[30] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[36] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[37] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[38]

In mid–1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[39] The North Vietnamese made that offer because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[40] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[39] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[30]

In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[41] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[30][41] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, which was stopped by guards.[30] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[30] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[42][43] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[44] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[45] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements.[46]
Interview with McCain on April 24, 1973, after his return home
Interview with McCain on April 24, 1973, after his return home

McCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[47] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[48] while McCain continued to be an active resister against the camp authorities.[49] McCain and other prisoners cheered the B-52 Stratofortress-led U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, which they viewed as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[43][50]

Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was finally released from captivity on March 14, 1973.[51]

 

[a_majoor]

Some proof of this would be nice. 

Insofar as we can figure out Senator Obama's policy proposals, there are continual vague promises to raise marginal tax rates against "the rich" (making the standard invocations of "Fairness" rather than discussing tax efficiency [i.e will raising taxes really increase income, or cause the economy to stall]), enroll Americans in ill defined national service initiatives and "require" (i.e. set by government fiat) changes in the American econony wrt renewable energy generation, electric or hybrid vehicles and "carbon caps".

If the Senator was actually forthcoming with specifics then we could nail this down some more, but the speech referenced above only adds to the impression that he has given throughout the campaign of a preference to command economy solutions.

 

[CougarKing]

They're not as bitter as some say.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12824.html

Clinton supporters warm to Obama
By: Amie Parnes
August 26, 2008 08:34 AM EST

DENVER — They’re warming to him. But they still love her.

As supporters of Hillary Rodham Clinton fortified themselves Monday for the first night of the Democratic National Convention, alongside throngs of Barack Obama supporters wearing his buttons, they had her on their minds — not him.

Most Clinton backers acknowledge they’ll inevitably support the Illinois senator for whom they came all the way to Denver. But as the convention opened, some couldn't help but wonder that this could have been — even should have been — her party, not his. And up until last weekend, when Obama tapped Delaware Sen. Joe Biden as his running mate, they held out hope that it wouldn't just be his convention, it would be theirs.

"I'm very upset," said Mary Fierro, a California delegate who logged countless hours working in Clinton's Fresno phone bank during the primaries. "I really, really felt like she was the most qualified candidate. He's new, he's inexperienced.”

"Hillary, on the other hand, has so much to offer," she added.


Fierro wore a Hillary Clinton for President button Monday as she attended state delegation meetings and another gathering of the Hispanic Caucus. She vowed to "be with Hillary all the way," saying she would be casting a roll call vote for the New York senator Wednesday night.

On Tuesday, in prime time, Clinton will address the convention in what the Obama campaign hopes will be a rousing unity speech.

But other delegates and supporters said they felt the same way as Fierro — eager to stick with Clinton now — and for what may develop for her down the long and winding political road ahead.

Patricia Bakalian, a delegate from Santa Cruz, Calif., and a Democrat for 35 years, said Clinton was mistreated by the Obama campaign and the Democratic Party. And Bakalian and a group of 300 other delegates got together last month to urge that Clinton's name be placed in nomination.

"Bottom line is, I would never vote for John McCain," she said. "But I am undecided."

The latest USA Today/Gallup poll shows that Fierro, Bakalian and others are not alone. Fewer than half of Clinton's supporters say they will definitely vote for Obama in November. The survey said 47 percent of Clinton supporters said they are "solidly behind Obama." And 23 percent said they support the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee but "may change their minds before the election."

Obama campaign spokesman Nick Shapiro looked for the bright side.

“We’ve been very pleased that so many who supported Sen. Clinton in the primary have taken active roles in the Obama campaign,” he said, “organizing, raising money, and most importantly, talking to their friends and neighbors about the clear choice in this election.”

On Monday, Clinton spent the morning urging her supporters to unite behind Obama.

"We're gathered here in Denver for a very clear and specific purpose," the New York senator said at breakfast meeting of the New York delegation. "And that purpose is to elect Barack Obama president of the United States. ... Now, I ask each and every one of you to work as hard for Barack Obama as you worked for me."

"Make no mistake about it," she declared. "We are united."

Later, at a meeting with members of the Democratic Hispanic Caucus, she repeated the same unity message as the crowd chanted, "Hillary! Hillary! Hillary!"

For a brief moment, as the former first lady waved to supporters and they stood on chairs to catch a glimpse of her, it felt like her convention.

"Sure, I wish this was her convention, absolutely," said Terry McAuliffe, her campaign fundraiser and confidant.

"Why would you not let her have her moment?" he asked. "Let her speak, let her unite the party, and when she finished her speech we'll be united and fired up like a rocket."

One delegate from California, Marisa Yeager, smiled as she glanced at Clinton, making the convention rounds Monday, but has moved on. She wore a button that said Hillary Supporter for Obama and said she was ready to throw her support behind the Illinois senator.

"This is definitely a little bittersweet," Yeager said. "We all wanted the Clinton-Obama dream ticket. But I am completely supportive of Sen. Obama. It's time to bring everyone together."

Curley Clark, a delegate from Mississippi, a Clinton supporter agreed.

"There are some wounds, some deep wounds, and the Obama campaign definitely has their work cut out for them, but let's move on," he said.

Still, some Clinton supporters can't help but look back and wonder.

"Of course I'm disappointed," said Peggy Davis, an alternate delegate from North Carolina who walked near the convention hall, carrying a canvas bag that read “Support Hillary.”

"I always liked her," Davis said. "I felt like she would have been the better nominee."

Davis' husband, Donald, a delegate, agreed. While the Raleigh lawyer supports Obama, he and other friends who are delegates "feel she's not getting the respect she deserves."

Davis plans to also vote for Clinton in the roll call vote.

"The race ended in a virtual tie," he said. "It's not like there was a runaway winner."

"You have to give her credit," Davis added.

© 2008 Capitol News Company, LLC

 

[Edward Campbell]

I watched and then reviewed last night’s performances at the Democratic National Convention. Hillary Clinton gave a real ‘barn-burner of a speech. It was a classic piece of political rhetoric: very well crafted and beautiful delivered; she’s an impressive campaigner. The McCain camp has much for which to thank Sen. Clinton; she completely overshadowed the important and potentially damaging speech – the keynote address delivered by Gov. Mark Warner of Virginia.

Warner’s speech, in contrast to Clinton’s, was poor televisions but first rate policy. He addressed the real, significant failures of the George W. Bush administration: strategic, economic, social and so on. He set out the important issues that will face America and the West for the next generation and, potentially worse for McCain, he offered some useful proposals.

But, thankfully, for those of us who believe that a McCain administration will be better for Canada than an Obama one, Hillary Clinton completely overshadowed Warner so real, serious damage was not done. In fact, one hopes that the McCain team is parsing Warner’s speech, line by line, and will shamelessly steal most of it.

 

[observor 69]

A purty map: 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

 

[geo]

was watching some US TV last night.... saw a couple of Republican adds that showed Hillary backing McCain....
Taken outa context for sure but.... on TV... priceless advertising.

 

[aesop081]

was watching some US TV last night.... saw a couple of Republican adds that showed Hillary backing McCain....
Taken outa context for sure but.... on TV... priceless advertising.

She's already been on TV about that saying "I'm Hillary Clinton and i did not aprove this message" in one of her speeches.

 

[geo]

Yeah - she might not approve of the message, but it is a message that she did express during her own run.
That,s the problem with all the personal video devices and mass storage of data.... once you said it, you can't make it dissapear.

 

[stegner]

Ok given that McCain has a reputation for being a maverick and is making such a big deal about the Hillary thing.  I propose that he her the Vice-Presidency-otherwise he is just being a hypocrite.  If she is so qualified for the position and since he is such a maverick this should not be a problem. 

 

[YZT580]

You know Stegner that is actually an idea that is worth considering if I were trying to mount an effective campaign against Obama.  The only problem is, if Maccain dies you end up with Bill in the white house again

 

[CougarKing]

A new poll out by USA Today/Gallup taken since Obama's world tour shows McCain with a 4 point lead. While polls at this stage dont mean alot it does show that Obama continues to have a problem with white voters. As we get closer to November the Obama campaign will alter their message to say that white voters are racists if they dont vote for Obama. The problem is white voters dont like Obama's mixed messages,his lack of experience and his radical background/politics. He hasnt won over Clinton supporters as of yet and there still is a chance that Obama wont get the democrat nomination - he doesnt have enough delegates to win on the first ballot. I think Clinton's people have been working the super delegates. So the convention may get very interesting.

The roll call has been made and they overwhelmingly went for Obama. So much for that.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

Democrats choose Obama in historic acclamation
By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent
4 minutes ago

DENVER - Barack Obama stepped triumphantly into history Wednesday night, the first black American to win a major party presidential nomination, as thousands of Democrats transformed their convention hall into a joyful, shouting celebration.

The son of a black Kenyan father and a white American mother is now one victory from becoming president of a nation where, just decades ago, many blacks were denied the vote.

Competing chants of "Obama!" and "Yes we can!" surged up from the convention floor as the outcome was announced. Later, when their nominee paid a late-night visit to the hall, Obama embraced running mate Joe Biden and implored the delegates to help him "take back America" in the fall campaign against Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona.

"Change in American doesn't start from the top down," he told the adoring crowd, "it starts from the bottom up."

But even as he won the nomination, there was open talk in the convention city that Obama's race remained a stumbling block to winning the White House.

"A lot of white workers ... and quite frankly a lot of union members believe he's the wrong race," AFL-CIO Secretary-Treasurer Richard Trumka told a breakfast meeting of Michigan delegates.

Obama will face McCain, who will accept the Republican nomination next week in St. Paul, Minn.

Earlier, former rival Hillary Rodham Clinton asked the convention to interrupt its roll call of the states and make its verdict unanimous "in the spirit of unity, with the goal of victory." And they did, with a roar.

The polls show a close race ahead with McCain, a former Vietnam prisoner of war a few days shy of his 72nd birthday, and Obama was hoping Democrats would leave their convention united despite the hard feelings remaining from a bruising primary campaign that stretched over 18 months.

Former President Bill Clinton did his part, delivering a strong pitch for the man who defeated his wife for the nomination. "Everything I've learned in eight years as president and the work I've done since, in America and across the globe, has convinced me that Barack Obama is the man for this job," he said, to loud cheers.

Michelle Obama, watching from her seat in the balcony, stood and applauded as the former president praised her man.

And Obama, delighting the crowd with his appearance on stage, praised both Clintons as well as his wife for their prime time speeches this week.

"If I'm not mistaken, Hillary Clinton rocked the house last night!" he shouted.

The convention ends Thursday with Obama's acceptance speech, an event expected to draw a crowd of 75,000 at a nearby football stadium where an elaborate backdrop was under construction.

Biden, who has twice sought the presidency in his own right, won his place on Obama's ticket by acclamation.

In his acceptance speech, Biden said Obama was right about Iraq, a war he opposed from the start, and McCain was wrong.

"These times require more than a good soldier. They require a wise leader," Biden said. "A leader who can deliver change. The change that everybody knows we need."

Obama isn't the first black man to seek the White House, but is the first with a chance to win it. Others, including Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988, tailored their appeals largely to blacks or lower-income voters of all races.

Obama's reach for political power and history was different, aimed at the broad American political middle. And his nomination, delivered so jubilantly, represents a gamble of sorts by the Democratic Party that a country founded by slave-owners and desegregated only in recent decades — and even then sometimes violently — is ready to place a black man in the Oval Office.

Sen. John Kerry, the party's 2004 nominee, said Obama's victory shouldn't be a close call. In some of the strongest anti-McCain rhetoric of the convention week, he said his longtime friend is merely masquerading as a maverick. "The candidate who once promised a `contest of ideas' now has nothing left but personal attacks," he said. "How insulting ... how pathetic ... how desperate."

Hillary Clinton's call for Obama to be approved by acclamation — midway through the traditional roll call of the states — was the culmination of a painstaking agreement worked out between the two camps to present a unified front after their long and often-bitter fight for the nomination.

Inside the convention hall, the outcome of the roll call of the states was never in doubt, only its mechanics.

"No matter where we stood at the beginning of this campaign, Democrats stand together today," declared Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida, a former Clinton supporter who delivered a nominating speech for Obama.

"We believe passionately in Barack Obama's message of changing the direction of our country," she said.

Earlier in the day, Clinton formally released her delegates amid shouts of "no," by disappointed supporters. "She doesn't have the right to release us," said Massachusetts delegate Nancy Saboori. "We're not little kids to be told what to do in a half-hour."

And Clinton did get hundreds of votes in the roll call — 341 to Obama's 1,549 — before she called for him to be approved by acclamation.
Polls show the campaign now is a close one between Obama and McCain, and both campaigns have been advertising in nearly a dozen battleground states for weeks.

The same surveys show a strong desire for change after eight years of the Bush administration, and Obama has pledged an end to the war in Iraq and a fresh economic policy.

Obama's nomination sealed a political ascent as astonishing as any other in recent memory — made all the more so by his race, in a nation founded by slave owners.

The son of a white mother from Kansas and a black father from Kenya whom he barely knew, he attended college and Harvard Law School. In between was a turn as a $12,000-a-year community worker on the streets of Chicago.

He won his seat in the Illinois Legislature in 1996. But his first bid for higher office, a brash challenge to Rep. Bobby Rush in an inner-city Chicago congressional district, ended in failure in 2000.

Four years later, as a candidate for the Senate, he dazzled with a keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, then won his election. He announced his presidential candidacy a scant two years after arriving in Washington.

With his gifts as a speaker, his astounding ability to raise funds on the Internet and an unmatched ground operation pieced together by political veterans, he won the first test, the Iowa caucuses, on Jan. 3

Clinton rebounded to win the New Hampshire primary five days later, and the two were soon matched in a grueling battle for the nomination that was not settled until the primaries ended in June.

"The journey will be difficult. The road will be long," he said then as he pivoted to confront McCain.

 

[tomahawk6]

Polling this week shows that 30% of Hillary's supporters will either not vote or vote for McCain. Perhaps those numbers will change after the convention.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Polling this week shows that 30% of Hillary's supporters will either not vote or vote for McCain. Perhaps those numbers will change after the convention.

While I think the convention hoopla will bring some of Clinton's supporters into the Obama camp, there is, still, an undefined number of Americans who will not vote to put a black man in the White House. Some of those will not just sit on their hands; they will cross party lines and vote against Obama.

One problem is that there is almost no 'hard' data on that subject. It is off limits for polling. Even if it wasn't I think many people would not admit that pure, simple, old fashioned racism might drive their political choice.

This is not unique to the USA, although it has a well documented history of institutional racism. Canadian politicians who are visible minorities also face some degree of opposition just because they are not lily white.

 

[stegner]

While I think the convention hoopla will bring some of Clinton's supporters into the Obama camp, there is, still, an undefined number of Americans who will not vote to put a black man in the White House. Some of those will not just sit on their hands; they will cross party lines and vote against Obama.

One problem is that there is almost no 'hard' data on that subject. It is off limits for polling. Even if it wasn't I think many people would not admit that pure, simple, old fashioned racism might drive their political choice.

This is not unique to the USA, although it has a well documented history of institutional racism. Canadian politicians who are visible minorities also face some degree of opposition just because they are not lily white.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I think that factor plays a greater role in some of those die-hard Clinton supporters than most people think and would explain to a degree why some of these folks are going to be voting for McCain. 

 

[tomahawk6]

Explanation of the Bradley Effect which is the term for white voters that tell a pollster one thing and vote another.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=268328

NASHUA, NH – Barack Obama was supposed to win New Hampshire.

The polls going into Tuesday's New Hampshire Democratic presidential primary had him running ahead of Hillary Clinton by up to 13 points.

Yet, when the returns came in on Tuesday night, Obama lost by three points to fellow Democrat Hillary Clinton.

Were the polls flawed?

Or was it just another instance of The Bradley Effect?

The Bradley Effect refers to an electoral phenomenon first identified in a 1982 California gubernatorial election.

Tom Bradley, the popular mayor of Los Angeles, was the supposed frontrunner in an open race for the state's top job. Polls showed the African-American Democrat running well ahead of white Republican candidate George Deukmejian. Yet, when the returns came in, Bradley lost by more than 50,000 votes.

The result made no sense. The gubernatorial election was one of the few Democratic losses in what was a good year for the party. Bradley was an able politician with a sound record. Analysts took a new look at the polls, which seemed to have been conducted appropriately.

They asked: What are we missing here?

Then they hit on the notion that white voters, not wanting to be thought of as prejudiced against an African-American candidate, had told pollsters they were for Bradley when they had always intended to vote for Deukmejian.

The phenomenon came to be referred to as The Bradley Effect.

It was to be seen again in 1989, when Virginians were electing a new governor. African-American Democrat Doug Wilder held a solid lead over white Republican Marshall Coleman – nine points in some polls. Yet, on election night, results showed him winning by less than one point.

In 1990, when African-American Democrat Harvey Gantt challenged white Republican incumbent Jesse Helms for a North Carolina Senate seat, polls had Gantt ahead by four to six percentage points. On election night, however, Helms prevailed by four points.

Again and again, in elections in the north and south, The Bradley Effect has come into play.

But, skeptical observers will note, there was no evidence of a Bradley effect in last week's Iowa caucuses. Obama led in the polls and he led on election night. What explains this? In Iowa, voting took place in a very public caucus setting where neighbors saw who neighbors backed.

In New Hampshire, as in California in 1982, in Virginia in 1989 and North Carolina in 1990, the presidential primary voting took place in private--behind the curtain of a voting booth. It was possible for voters who had said they were for Obama to cast their ballots for Clinton.

That's how The Bradley Effect works.

And there is good reason to suspect that The Bradley Effect was at work in New Hampshire. This is not to suggest that everyone who decided against voting for Obama was a racist. Nor is the point here that all those likely Democratic primary voters who said they were excited about Obama were lying. Rather, what needs to be understood is that voters in New Hampshire -- like voters in other states -- come to the polls with backgrounds and attitudes toward African-American candidates.

New Hampshire's population boomed in the 1970s and 1980s, when white residents of the Boston area fled north during a period of bitter dispute over busing to achieve racial integration. Many of these people grew up with a charged, racially defined politics that created long-term impressions about whether African-American candidates are electable. Thus, it is entirely possible that voters told pollsters that preferred Barack Obama but did not vote for him because they really did not think he could win in November.

Whatever the precise reasoning, The Bradley Effect offers a credible explanation for why the polls were so very wrong.

It also offers a cautionary note regarding the New Hampshire results and what they mean for the rest of the primary process: If The Bradley Effect was in play in New Hampshire, then Barack Obama may face a greater struggle as he seeks to bridge those rarely-mentioned gaps that remain in a nation that has long been divided along lines of race and class.

It is not merely Obama's struggle, however. It is America's struggle, as well. And Obama's opening remains. If he is ready to wrestle with The Bradley Effect -- and if his campaign is willing to challenge opponents who seek to exploit it with coded questions about "electability" -- Obama might well succeed in opening the American political debate up in a way that has been needed for a very long time.

 

[geo]

T6
I would contend that it is just as much a "White / coloured" issue as it is a "man / woman" issue.

People being polled would say they are for the female candidate..... without necessarily intending to vote for the female presidential candidate.