Proper protocol for Officer Cadets

[NavalGent]

Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.

 

[Neill McKay]

Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.

That's all correct; an off-duty reservist can do certain things that an off-duty regular member can't, as you've outlined.  (Some freedoms remain absent from their lives, e.g. joining a white supremacist group, for those so inclined.  Even with the uniform hanging in the closet, the reservist is a reflection of the Forces.)  But they're not civilians, and not captured by the provision in the drill manual for the saluting of civilians by service members. 

 

[Sailing Instructor]

I was propounding it as a logical issue rather than an actual problem (i.e. that I have a sudden urge to salute my NCM-reservist friends when they're out of uniform).

But I'm still curious on the status of the drill manual (or any publication like that) and CO's orders.  Obviously if the CO orders you to salute a cadet (or anyone for that matter) you salute them, but ought one to ask up the COC to have the policy brought in line with the drill manual.

In favour of saluting cadets if ordered, The drill manual does say:

34. Other Occasions. Compliments shall be
paid on other occasions as notified from time to time
in the appropriate regulations, orders and instructions.

However, right at the beginning of the compliments section, it states:

3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid
to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the
Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence;
lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers.
Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased
service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to
23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 and 41.

Note it doesn't mention para 34.

Perhaps there is a CANFORGEN of which I am unaware.

 

[Sig_Des]

Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.

Actually, if a off-duty reserve officer is in a situation where they may get saluted, they're probably on DND property, and subject to the NDA. just a caveat

 

[Glorified Ape]

From my understanding, the no-commission-no-salute thing is appropriate. Of course, I wouldn't mind being saluted although I'd feel slightly less than deserving of it since I haven't completed any training past IAP and I have no commission. I was saluted once and it surprised the crap out of me - of course I returned the salute but I didn't correct the Mcpl that rendered it.

When people address me, sometimes it's sir and sometimes it's Ocdt. As I said before, since I have no commission I have no expectation to be called sir. Maybe I'm just laid back, I dunno. Maybe I should join the airforce.  ;D

Just as an aside - when I'm dealing with civilian workers and commissionaires I usually call them "sir" or "ma'am" just out of respect. Is that wrong? I've never had someone correct me on it, they just seem to be kind of surprised.

 

[Zoomie]

Just as an aside - when I'm dealing with civilian workers and commissionaires I usually call them "sir" or "ma'am" just out of respect. Is that wrong? I've never had someone correct me on it, they just seem to be kind of surprised.

Not at all - it's just a sign of respect...

 

[SeanNewman]

To get back to the main post here, the saying "a Private is senior to an OCdt" is a half-truth.

In the same way you can have a Pte trained, and a Pte recruit, you can have an OCdt who knows nothing, and an OCdt who is a qualified dismounted platoon commander.  If he has passed Ph3, and is on the job training at a 3rd Bn while awaiting Ph4, it is very possible that he may be a stand-in platoon commander.

This is the one instance where you would salute an OCdt, because while the rule states that you're saluting the scroll, this OCdt knows how to lead troops in combat.

It's not as simple as rank = salute, because in this instance, the OCdt is higher up the chain than a 2Lt with a degree on BOTC, still learning tripods.

This is the full answer to the question.

 

[aesop081]

Its not a question of what position an Ocdt occupies or if he knows how to lead troops into cobat or out of a wet paper bag.  The salut is not warranted as he/she does not have a commission, plain and simple.  What should e do ? walk around and stop every officer cadet and ask " hey you...what job do you do ?"

The salute is not for the CoC......

 

[vonGarvin]

First of all, NEVER salute an officer cadet (unless so ordered by someone OTHER than the officer cadet, of course) ;D
Proper forms of address include "Mister y" (where "y" = the gentleman's family name) or "Miss x" (where x = the lady's family name)
Incidentally, addressing 2Lt's and Lt's as Mister "X" or Miss "Y" are also appropriate.  It is NOT appropriate, however, to address a Captain or higher rank as "mister".
As an officer who is not a commanding officer, I never address an RSM as "RSM", it is as "Mr X".  The logic being that he is the CO's RSM (and the NCM's as well, who also call him sir or RSM or whatever).  Anyway, I've digressed, and must now eat lest I smoke

:evil:

 

[MC]

OCdts are sometimes treated just as harshly as new privates.. at the local reserve engineering corps, when I was looking into joining, I was told to expect to be down in the dirt with the rest of the men during exercises... which is not why I declined btw Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.

regards,

 

[MC]

I guess you read the expression less, hmm.. "figuratively" than I intended it to be... I'm not really looking for a desk job, you know. A little eager to bash the newbie, are we? 

 

[pbi]

which is not why I declined btw  Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.

How do you figure that being in the Regular Army would give you that as opposed to being a full time student and a Res officer?

Cheers.

 

[Redeye]

OCdts are sometimes treated just as harshly as new privates.. at the local reserve engineering corps, when I was looking into joining, I was told to expect to be down in the dirt with the rest of the men during exercises... which is not why I declined btw Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.

regards,

That isn't harsh, that's good training.  How can one be a leader without understanding what those being led are expected to do?!  I've spent a few exercises with my PRes unit as "Number 1 rifleman Alpha Team" just being a soldier to become proficient at it.  You can't lead men (or women) who think you're just a leader to get out of hard work.  No leader should ask a subordinate to do anything they would not do themselves.

 

[MC]

How do you figure that being in the Regular Army would give you that as opposed to being a full time student and a Res officer?

Cheers.

hey,

In the regular program, the army pays for your studies and during the summer you recieve training. After recieving your diploma, you serve for the same amount of time that you were sponsored for. I didn't hear about any such program for the reserves; you work both during the school year and summers but don't have any obligation. I know it isn't 40 hours a week or anything, but wanting to end up in the regulars anyway I figured it would be better for me to go that route.

 

[MC]

That isn't harsh, that's good training.  How can one be a leader without understanding what those being led are expected to do?!  I've spent a few exercises with my PRes unit as "Number 1 rifleman Alpha Team" just being a soldier to become proficient at it.  You can't lead men (or women) who think you're just a leader to get out of hard work.  No leader should ask a subordinate to do anything they would not do themselves.

Lesson taken, and I completely agree with you... I think during the second phase for engineering you spent most of the summer learning and doing what every person in the regiment has to do during exercices.

I'd just like to add, since it obviously came out wrong, that I just wanted to say that I was told ocdts were to expect to recieve a lot of shit (rightfully so)... didn't mean to imply I figured I'd be picking flowers and yelling at people from a high chair during exercices

cheers 

 

[NavalGent]

I was propounding it as a logical issue rather than an actual problem (i.e. that I have a sudden urge to salute my NCM-reservist friends when they're out of uniform).

You've got to get those sudden urges under control, bud.

 

[Strike]

Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?  Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?   Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.

It usually depends on the Brow Staff that is on and where you are at in the world.

 

[Guardian]

My buddy on Freddie took me and our ladies aboard for a visit a couple months back... When we left, the duty officer (a Lt(N)) saluted our group as we left. He outranked us both.

I'd like to think it was because he recognized the Army's inherent superiority and was saluting me as some act of cross-service obeisance....  ;D

However, my buddy told me that it was our ladies that it was intended for. Too bad. :-\

 

[Edward Campbell]

It used to be common courtesy, in the army, to salute ladies â “ normally upon being introduced.

I saw it done recently, in 2000, at a major formal ball, by a retired general officer, in uniform (he held an honorary appointment).  Just outside the lavish venue for the ball he met two soldiers, in regimental scarlets, and their ladies (ball gowns, of course); the soldiers saluted, the general stopped and introduced himself, the soldiers introduced their wives/girlfriends, a few pleasantries were exchanged; the general smiled, shook hands, saluted, to each lady in turn, and went on his way.  Very proper.