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Proper protocol for Officer Cadets

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aesop081,

I read your profile, and I see that you have some SI, but it doesn't list your MOC.

The rule is clear in stating that you salute the commission, not the rank, but we are not talking CF-wide.

If an OCdt platoon commander in 3 RCR is walking around in Trenton, of course he's not going to be saluted.  In the same manner, troops aren't going to be in a big hurry to salute an AF OCdt, either.

You don't need to go around asking what a person's posting is in battalion life, because there are less than a dozen pl comds.  Soldiers in his platoon are going to know he's the pl comd, and they are going to be the ones saluting him.
 
SeanNewman said:
aesop081,

I read your profile, and I see that you have some SI, but it doesn't list your MOC.

The rule is clear in stating that you salute the commission, not the rank, but we are not talking CF-wide.

If an OCdt platoon commander in 3 RCR is walking around in Trenton, of course he's not going to be saluted.   In the same manner, troops aren't going to be in a big hurry to salute an AF OCdt, either.

You don't need to go around asking what a person's posting is in battalion life, because there are less than a dozen pl comds.   Soldiers in his platoon are going to know he's the pl comd, and they are going to be the ones saluting him.

Fair enough...i guess i was making the "by the book" point but i can see where yo are coming from.

By the way, my username pretty much states what MOC i am...i also spent 11 years a a combat engineer.
 
Strike said:
Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?   Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.

The drill manual provides for saluting civilians.
 
Sorry Sean, I still don't buy it...

An OCdt who is PlComd or Troop Leader does not deserve or beget a salute any more than a Sgt/WO doing the same job.  Officer Cadets are not CF Officers nor are they NCMs, they are a breed in their own that exist in limbo until Phase 4 is complete or MOC qualified.  This is CF wide and irregardless of the branch of the military.  We have Officer Cadets in the Airforce which fly aircraft and fulfill Duty Operations Positions (both of which are Commissioned Officer's jobs) - at no time are any of these fine people saluted.  I can safely assure you that these jobs are just as demanding and skill intensive as the positions you mentioned earlier.

Food for thought
 
Well, call me harsh but in my view OCdts are much like children within the military heirarchy.  I say this in the context that they ought to be "seen but not heard".  Ooohhh - harsh words, eh?  But what do I really mean by this?  

Well, it is quite simple.  In a perfect world, OCdts would be entirely confined to the training system.  As they OUGHT to be.  That is why they are Officer CADETS.  And I might add that I fully include any non-Classification-trained 2Lts within this same grouping.  Not to get into the rather messy a "degree does not an officer make", but I would hope we can all agree that a 2Lt lacking full classification training in his/her MOC is not yet ready to command soldiers.  Such 2Lts are merely OCdts with a degree.  

Be they RMC types with "summer soldier phase training" during the "happy months", or on the somewhat more rigorous DEO/"Degree-lacking" trainee program where they actually have to soldier through the "off-season months".  Either way, at the end of the day, the "ideal" officer candidate completes his/her classification training and is not only commissioned but CLASSIFICATION QUALIFIED before being foisted upon actual troops.  

Yes, I know that this does not always happen, and we frequently end up with "Phase 3" (sorry, the current DP-speak equivalent escapes me) OCdts posted to operational units in the expectation that they will "learn good stuff" until it is time to return to CTC and finish their basic training.  This lamentable practice of sending partially-formed officers to operational units acheives nothing good for any party concerned.  Quite frankly, it is invariably a disaster for both the trainee and the trained soldiers/non-commissioned leaders that he/she is foisted upon.  It is a horribly awkward and near-utterly useless practice.  "Contact training" is a farce.  Nobody wins.

I've seen it, I've endured it at various "stations of the cross" during battalion duty (including rifle company command), and I am here to tell you that "contact training" is a bad idea.  Regular Army soldiers deserve qualified leadership.  They are not a "petri dish" for the further cultivation of half-formed officers who may or may not make the grade during the last hurdle of their classification training.  And it is high time that we stopped treating our soldiers as such.  Their unwitting contract as part of the officer professional development process does not start until the young officer is imposed upon them with the full course of professional development training.  That alone, is sufficient burden upon our non-commissioned ranks.  We need not stress their role further by subjecting them to the whims of half-formed "wannabe" officers who have yet to make the grade.  That is for the training system to sort out.  It is NOT the responsibility nor the purview of our soldiers and NCOs.  

All of that to say, having been a (Res F) Sr NCO transferring to the Reg F, it did me a world of irreplacable good spending the better part of 2 years making the transition to Reg F officer under the professional tutelage of numerous Sr NCOs and (later) officers before I received my first battalion posting.  I shudder to think how I would have felt (and been received) had I been thrust unprepared into the harsh reality of a line battalion with anything less than the full basic Phase 4 qualification.  Lord knows, I've seen enough non-Phase 4-qualified OCdts and 2Lts who are between "school years" suddenly "gifted" to battalions on the premise that they are Phase 3 "qualified dismounted Pl Comds" awaiting training.  By and large, it wasn't pretty at all....  

As I said at the outset - OCdts are meant to be "invisible".  All things being equal, the best possible course of events is that they remain within the cloistered "training system" until they are fully qualified within their applicable classification.  No offence, but this is the environment in which they can freely debate who ought to be saluting who, who has a day more "seniority", etc.  It all seems awfully important at the time, which is probably is.  The fact however, is that such pedantic issues have zero place within the real world.  These things have long been sorted out within the "real" Army/Navy/Airforce.  This may come as a bit of a disappointing surprise, but we don't waste a whole lot of time debating such trivial matters....

I will fully admit that this is merely my experience-based opinion, but I firmly believe that a "keep 'em separated" approach works to the benefit of all concerned.  I can name at least a half-dozen OCdt and 2Lt "casualties" of premature judgement by real-world soldiers.  Such situations are not pretty, nor are they necessary.  For all of their "chomping at the bit" and unbridled self-confidence (often completely unwarranted), partially-trained officers need to be protected from themselves.  And the best method of doing so is to keep them firmly within the nuturing embrace of the training system until such time as they are fully classification trained.

Just my $.02, as someone who has seen both sides of the situation.  At the end of the day, odds are that a half-formed officer will do far more harm to him/herself and the affected soldiers than anything positive.  OJT is for static trades, not for positions which entail life/death leadership and associated technical competence.

Keep the OCdts and untrained 2Lts in school where they belong and where they can be suitably developed.  Their time in the "big leagues" will come soon enough.....trust me

As always, just my $.02
 
Yielding to experience, I'd have to go with Mark C.

I don't have any OJT but I can tell you that I have absolutely no desire to work in a unit until I'm qualified and commissioned. I'd like to be as little of a burden as possible on the NCO's who'll have to hold my hand for the first little while when I'm posted and that's when I'm actually qualified and commissioned. I can't imagine the pain in the a-- it must be to have to hold an unqualified, non-commissioned Ocdt's hand.
 
Mark C said:
 OJT is for static trades, not for positions which entail life/death leadership and associated technical competence.

Keep the OCdtsand untrained 2Lts in school where they belong and where they can be suitably developed.  

So to clear up your POV:
- some 2Lts/OCdts can do OJT depending on their trade, the weather or your approval...
- the other 2Lts and Ocdts should be held in the nursery/PAT tp until completely educated and qualified. 

I think the trick might be giving these "children" (FYI I'm 27), appropriate OJT for their qualifications.  I can assure you Marc, I am making my self useful and not a burden to the Snr NCO's.
 
I agree that a Ph 3 qualified 2Lt isn't ready to command Reg F troops...

However, keeping them segregated from the "real world" during the almost two years it takes to train them (4 for RMC) is not going to help matters any.

The biggest problem I've seen with RMC graduates (and before all the current cadets on the board start climbing all over me, I'm one myself) is their exposure to real soldiers.

Simply put, the average RMC cadet has regular contact with perhaps 2 or 3 sergeants / warrants during the eight months they're at the college during the year, and during the summers perhaps 5 or 6 more who are DS on their courses. By the time they graduate and land in a real unit, they haven't been exposed in any meaningful way to any soldier under the rank of sergeant... and the few sergeants-and-above they have known were all DS in training positions, which is a different example to follow than an NCO in a regimental environment.

Consequently, these new 2Lts have no concept of what life is like for the average soldier, day by day, in a regimental context. They don't have a feel for their concerns, their lifestyle, the problems they face on the job...

As for the DEOs, they tend to be punted to holding troops until they're finished Ph 4, and so aren't that much better.

The Arty School, a couple years back, started sending CAP / Ph 2 qualified 2Lts and OCdts out to the field on exercise with W Bty as "gun bunnies." They would work a four-or-five day exercise, two or three times a month, as members of gun detachments - one or two untrained officers per det - under the tender supervision of a sergeant or MBdr. That exposure to the soldiers, in my limited and humble experience, was priceless. You have a chance to work with the soldiers, doing their job, learning what life is like for them out on the gun line - and you have an opportunity to win their respect on their terms.

And when these officers hit Ph 3 and Ph 4, the knowledge accumulated pays off. They have an instinctive feel for the rhythm of gun line operations, a basic grasp of fire discipline from the gunners' perspective (awfully handy knowing how your orders from the CP will be received by the guys on the other end), and, importantly, an empathy with your soldiers who carry out your fire orders. I always tried to be quick to send "guns rest" when I knew things were going to take a while - because I remembered freezing my rear off on a gun as the CPO and Tech WO tried to sort something out in the box...

In summary, maybe they're not ready for command... but in the long run, the troops will probably be better off if the officers get as much exposure to soldiers during their training as possible. Segregation will only lead to prima donnas....
 
Guardian said:
I agree that a Ph 3 qualified 2Lt isn't ready to command Reg F troops...

Is this true though?

I know Reserve Officers without Phase IV who commanded Platoons overseas.

Is Phase IV neccessary if an Officer is heading to a Light Battalion?
 
Mark C-

I see your point of view, but am not sure that I fully agree, based on my own personal experience.

I used to be an Artillery Officer.  in 1989, between Ph 3 and Ph 4, I was given a 3 month opportunity to OJT at 119 AD Bty in Chatham as an OCdt.  I was given to one of the Troop Commanders as an understudy, to watch and learn. However, without much warning, that TC was loaded on CF Staff School and left for Toronto.  Rather than make the TSM the acting TC, the BC decided to give my an opportunity to act as TC.  The TSM, who I'm certain was under very strict instructions not to let me really fall on my face, treated me as the troop commander (ie- he made me make rhe decisions on troop matters, after carefully laying out the options and implications for me).  We only went to the field once- it was a basic winter warfare ex, so I did not need to know the technical side of Air Defence that I had not yet learned, so once again, I "commanded" my Troop.  The MBdrs and Gunners treated me with respect and I hope that I reciprocated.

I learned more from that 3 months than at almost any other other time in my career.  I learned to trust the advice of NCOs.  I learned that respect is a two-way street between soldiers and officers and I gained alot of confidence.  I think part of the reason that it worked in my case is that, at the time, to be a TSM in the Artillery, one had to be Assistant-Instructor-in-Gunnery qualified.  Training officers was just a natural part of the TSM's job.

This all being said, I agree that this should not be a normal part of a Cbt Arms Officer's Training as the units are indeed very busy.  But, if the situation arises, I think that it is in everyones interest treat the OCdt professionally and help him/her to learn.

Cheers.
 
Mark C,
Although your point is very well stated, I don't think that I agree. What is the difference between an OCdt phase 3 qualified and an OCdt Phase 4. A couple of skill sets added, a couple of months experience and a nice parade. That same officer must still learn all the dealing with soldiers that is required, the managing of soldiers' careers and the officer Sr NCO relationship when they arrive at the unit. They still must be taught their job by WO and Sgts and the must be mentored by other officers. I don't advocate that OCdts be taken from Basic and put into units, however, later in training, this exposure, in my experience has worked well. Mark, I'm surprised that you has such bad experiences, what this specifically while you had your Coy?
 
I agree that the wee Ocdts should be separated from the real Bns until their training is complete.

The X reasons for this are:

1)We have used them as EN force, C6 ammo mules, signallers and photocopy makers, and other than getting yelled at and shat upon by everyone from MCpl up, they were simply "there", and were all more than happy to leave when the time came. One of them even attempted some sweet payback when he became a Pl Comd.

2) Most of the powers that be are confused as to the level of trg that these guys have - One WO would'nt give one a rifle, while one of his peers was doing a Captains job.

3) As with anything else, in life or the army, do it all the way or not at all. OJT is not a good idea for Infantry officers - they are dead weight and not that useful, in light of the fact that we dont just train for fun. We are usually training for a reason, and some RMC 23 year old with no practical experience is just another mouth to feed and water when we're busy.

I know this sounds a little harsh, but it's true.

One of the real weaknesses in our young officers is their "leadership presence", many of them do not really inspire their men anymore. Maybe they should use this spare time at Toastmasters or a similar venue - just a  thought....
 
GO!!! said:
One of the real weaknesses in our young officers is their "leadership presence", many of them do not really inspire their men anymore. Maybe they should use this spare time at Toastmasters or a similar venue - just a   thought....

Now that was funny - I can imagine the Adj getting all the new Officers to practice reciting lines from Shakespere's Henry V....
 
But how are they going to inspire their troops if they have had no exposure to real soldiers?

If you treat anyone - OCdt, 2Lt, or Pte (untrained) like dead weight and a waste of rations, you're not going to build a competent leader. When they finally do get back to the Regt, they'll be under the impression that the Army is really a "screw everyone else" club, and they'll act as they've been taught. It's no excuse for those small-minded individuals who arrive at the Regt, get a Tp / PL and decide, "screw the troops," but if you treat anyone as a not-really-necessary evil, it's bound to come back...

Maybe get them to do motivational speeches at Toastmasters - imagine some wet-behind-the-ears PL Comd arriving at the Regt and motivating his troops with a perfect rendition of the "Braveheart" speech......

"....Wha' wull ye do without freedom?...."  ;D
 
This has became very long-winded, and can be cleared up in much less words:

By the book, as per the rules:

No you would not salute them, as they do not have a commission. You would be in the "right" to not salute them.

Real world:

It exists like an asterisk to the rule.   There is a glitch in the CF matrix, because an OCdt (knows how to command a dismounted platoon) can exist with much more training than a 2Lt (still learning tripods).

Even in RARE cases where an OCdt could be a Pl Comd under OJT circumstances, a soldier MAY salute them as to show respect for their position, but they are in no way obligated to do so.
 
They should not be saluted under any circumatance as they do not hold a Commision.The proper term to address them is Mr. of Miss/Mrs..I agree fully with Mark C's comments the BNs are not prep schools for OCdts,they are not qualified to lead troops,therefore they should not be placed in a command position withing a Bn.
 
Unless, of course, if a Commanding Officer puts them in a command position, and directs that compliments will be paid.
 
Quote,
Unless, of course, if a Commanding Officer puts them in a command position, and directs that compliments will be paid.

...just curious, if the CO can do this, then could he put a Sgt. in that position and order "compliments" to be paid?
Since "by the book" neither holds a commission.
 
Wrong.

An OCdt with Ph3 is technically (although not officially) qualified to lead troops.  Regardless if he has to wait until after Ph4 to get his capbadge or commission, he is able to lead troops, if given the go-ahead by the CO.

In the same instance, a Sgt may fill the spot of pl comd if he has completed his Infantry 6Bs, where he is tested and qualified as an able pl comd.

Do not confuse a degreed OCdt sans-training with an OCdt without a degree, but having lead a pl.
 
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