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I tell you, recieved my first compliments today, it felt kinda wierd
Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
- Thread starter thorbahn
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Oh admit it you liked it 
I just remember when I first got my bar and I was standing around with a bunch of Cpl/Pte that I did my BMQ/SQ with and this Sgt came up to us and was smoking and joking. Good times had around by all, and then he went on and on and about junior officers, and how 'we' as Cpl/Ptes should be respectful but at the same time weary of things. Then he told us about the usual funnies about subbies and ocdts, all the while all my buddies were looking at me and smiling, while the Sgt was oblivious to what's happening. I was standing behind a buddy of mine with my arms crossed in front of me). So after all that, my buddy went 'Uh, so... Mr. XXXX what did you think about all that? Was it fairly accurate sir?' and the Sgt was like HUBBA?!
It was quite funny 
He was a class act though, he just said 'Well, I hope you listened to what I had to say, and don't make the same mistakes.' or words to that effect : I love crusty old NCMs they're the best.
I just remember when I first got my bar and I was standing around with a bunch of Cpl/Pte that I did my BMQ/SQ with and this Sgt came up to us and was smoking and joking. Good times had around by all, and then he went on and on and about junior officers, and how 'we' as Cpl/Ptes should be respectful but at the same time weary of things. Then he told us about the usual funnies about subbies and ocdts, all the while all my buddies were looking at me and smiling, while the Sgt was oblivious to what's happening. I was standing behind a buddy of mine with my arms crossed in front of me). So after all that, my buddy went 'Uh, so... Mr. XXXX what did you think about all that? Was it fairly accurate sir?' and the Sgt was like HUBBA?!
It was quite funny He was a class act though, he just said 'Well, I hope you listened to what I had to say, and don't make the same mistakes.' or words to that effect : I love crusty old NCMs they're the best.
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of course I did, but it still felt wierd (I had to walk by the wardroom to get to work this morning as a killick)
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Ref: A-AD-200-000/AG-000
11-2
FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma'am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma'am as applicable.
b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank or surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma'am as appropriate.
c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.
INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.
11-2
FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma'am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma'am as applicable.
b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank or surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma'am as appropriate.
c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.
INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.
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Thanks for the clarification there from the Regs. I find that today's society has leaked into our world where I hear people refering to senior NCOs and officers by their first names in a professional setting and it really rankles me.
When I arrived in my section last year my predecessor (a LCDR) had constantly referred to the FAdmO (a CDR) as Mark. I found that all the Lt(N)s were doing the same, of course. I stopped one of them in a meeting one day and said "excuse me who is it you are referring to as Mark?" "Oh you know the FAdmO"....I said "I think you are referring to COMMANDER Watson." It was too subtle for them so I had to put out a TM the next day to the section to inform them of the military protocol and that I did not expect to ever hear them referring to senior officers or NCOs in our meetings again in any other than military terms...ie their rank and surname or their official position. Funnily enough I've noticed that a lot of other things are going a lot better with regard to discipline since this one amendment was made.
One "bee in my bonnet" with regard to saluting is people who salute your back and then get insulted that you can't see them or return the compliment. I watched a P2 salute the Base Commander's back on the jetty yesterday. Yep he's a Capt(N) but he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head and he was busy talking to the Mayor of Halifax and his entourage who were there for a ceremony with the Goose Bay.
wrt OCdts; I was always taught that they did not carry the Queen's commission so therefore no salute. They are referred to as Mister or Ms. When spit out by a senior NCO in Chilliwack or Naden the Mister was never a compliment. ;D
When I arrived in my section last year my predecessor (a LCDR) had constantly referred to the FAdmO (a CDR) as Mark. I found that all the Lt(N)s were doing the same, of course. I stopped one of them in a meeting one day and said "excuse me who is it you are referring to as Mark?" "Oh you know the FAdmO"....I said "I think you are referring to COMMANDER Watson." It was too subtle for them so I had to put out a TM the next day to the section to inform them of the military protocol and that I did not expect to ever hear them referring to senior officers or NCOs in our meetings again in any other than military terms...ie their rank and surname or their official position. Funnily enough I've noticed that a lot of other things are going a lot better with regard to discipline since this one amendment was made.
One "bee in my bonnet" with regard to saluting is people who salute your back and then get insulted that you can't see them or return the compliment. I watched a P2 salute the Base Commander's back on the jetty yesterday. Yep he's a Capt(N) but he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head and he was busy talking to the Mayor of Halifax and his entourage who were there for a ceremony with the Goose Bay.
wrt OCdts; I was always taught that they did not carry the Queen's commission so therefore no salute. They are referred to as Mister or Ms. When spit out by a senior NCO in Chilliwack or Naden the Mister was never a compliment. ;D
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IN HOC SIGNO said:
I personnally don't see what's wrong with this. There is a way to be polite and call people by their first name. It just makes the atmosphere more relaxed and makes people more comfortable... Now, in an operationnal situation that might be different.
Max
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Rowshambow said:
just don't thank me for doing my job! So when you are doing your "job" you don't need or deserve any thank yous? Sounds screwed up to me. Perhaps next time you salute an officer they should say F&$K you instead? I am one of those officers who does say thank you and mean thank you. Too many times I have seen soldiers trying to kill themselves to get out of making a simple effort of saluting and when someone does salute, I say thank you and add a good day. When I was a NCM I appreciated the thank you I got from officers especially in the Navy where you more than often got guttural sounds from them.
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SupersonicMax said:
Being the low man on the totem pole you might find it makes things more comfortable for you, but I can assure you that not all those in between you and the highest rank are comfortable.[ and he/she is probably hoping someone closer to your 'level' would say something]
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I have to agree with Bruce here, and I was a wee killick but a few days ago, and while I do see a place where given names can de used in a non detrimental manner it is not for a group setting. and it does make officers uncomfortable especially in a group setting, they don't want to look like a D#%& for correcting you in a group but they also don't want to lose face with thier superiors for allowing it to continue.Bruce Monkhouse said:
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well Kincanucks, you and I totally disagree. I think it is kinda pompous to thank me for saluting your commission! If I do an extremely well job at something than fine thank me, but would you thank me for showing up for work? really it's one in the same. I showed up I saluted, no need for a thank you! that's the problem, if you say thank you everytime it sounds fake (even though you might really mean it) and if you read my entire post you would have read that I would think "good morning" or an acknowledgemeant like that sounds better and might actually make someone think you care! not saying you don't!
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I have always been taught since day one of being in Cadets, and day one on BMQ to never address anyone by their firstnames. I have thus never been comfortable in doing so. I see no problems in doing so out side of the uniform, and outside of work settings, but I have to agree with kincanucks in that there should be minimal to no addressing people by their first names. That being said, there are times where first names are appropriate. ie. when you are comforting a peer, subordinate when a tragedy happens. Other then that, first names are a no no.
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MedTech said:
First names DOWN the COC works in a casual situation. First names UP the COC DO NOT WORK, EVER (with the EXTREMELY rare exception, such as: death of a comrade, death of a family member, etcetera - when one is attempting to give/receive extremely personal and poignant advice/commiserations).
When I was still serving, those under my command ALWAYS (even when having the occasional wobbly pop together) addressed me by rank/appointment - and I returned the respect. When they were no longer under my command, and if we became friends, THEN a first name basis was comfortable for all. I RARELY addressed my superiors by Christian name (even when given dispensation to do so) - they were, after all, my SUPERIORS, 24/7 - social situation or not.
Since I've been retired, my former subordinates who have become lifelong friends address me by Christian name - and comfortably so - I am, after all, no longer their "boss" - I'm just someone with whom they once served. When I do occasionally run into a formerly despised superior or subordinate, they can continue to refer to me by the rank I earned.
I've been called a "hard-ass" for this mind-set - but I still seem to have managed to acquire some lifelong friends amongst my previous superiors and subordinates. Whilst we had that superior/subordinate relationship, however, professionalism was ALWAYS foremost.
Disagree if you want - it worked for me - and it did NOT interfere with normal "human" interaction.
Roy
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MedTech said:
As I with you - my post was meant to support your stated position - if you took it otherwise, I apologize.
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Why are we still discussing this?? :
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recceguy said:Why are we still discussing this?? :
Because it's there.
. There's most definitely no need to apologize Roy.
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your BMQ instructors were wrong,
exactly how can you expect to sit in a shell scrape with someone if you don't even know thier first name (know your subordinates as you know yourself - principles of leadership stuff) not saying we should replace the method we address each other but for a bunch of Pte's not to know each other is just p#$% poor leadership on the part of your instructor.
exactly how can you expect to sit in a shell scrape with someone if you don't even know thier first name (know your subordinates as you know yourself - principles of leadership stuff) not saying we should replace the method we address each other but for a bunch of Pte's not to know each other is just p#$% poor leadership on the part of your instructor.
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You shouldn't be SITTING in a shell scrape.......especially with someone else. In a shell scrape, your buttons should be getting in the way.
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ArtyNewbie said:
I don't know how that's p#$% poor leader ship there ArtyNewbie. They taught the way you were supposed to address each other in the proper format, rank and last name. For your general wealth of information, I had F*&#ing brilliant instructors, whom I would follow anywhere!! :threat: Please don't presume to lecture me on leadership. I know all of my troops' first names, and I am privileged to call many of them my friends since I came from the ranks of those who I serve with. Many of those are currently getting read for roto. If you actually reviewed your Principles of Leadership, no where does it say 'know your subordinates as you know yourself'. It DOES say however, and I quote:
#6 "Know your soldiers and promote their welfare"
Also, why would a bunch of Ptes not know each other? When you were on your courses did you ever routinely address each other by their Christian/First names? I know I didn't, becuase you are used to that, and there could be 5 different Bobs, Joes and Bloggins and Greenwoods. I sat in a level 3 and level 4 with my fireteam partner and for the life of me we couldnt remember each other's first names, did it matter? NO.
You know what... I am REALLY offended by the fact that you said my instructors had p#$% poor leadership!! I mean... forget it I'm going to go before I say something stupid....
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