Question about our colours

[scotty884]

As all gunners know our colours are the guns......with the loss of the M-109 and the gaining of the mortars.   I was wondering if anyone out there think the mortar should be considered "colours" or not.   Just a question to throw out there for opinions

 

[bossi]

I'm infantry.  We'd be happy to take this problem off your hands
(i.e. give us back our mortars ... and our pioneers, too!)  :crybaby:

 

[The Bat]

this is a quote from the RCA Standing orders so i think this will ansewr the question!!!!!

406. COLOURS
1. Traditionally, the colours of The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery are its guns.
They serve the same central role in pride and identity as do the guidons or colours of armour
and infantry regiments.
2. The custom of the guns being the colours of the artillery has its origin in the British
practice of designating the largest piece in an artillery train as the â Å“flag gunâ ?. This gun was
accorded the honour of carrying the equivalent of today's Queen's Colour. Use of the flag gun
has been recorded as early as 1722. Later, the guns themselves came to be regarded as the
colours of the artillery as gunners in battle rallied to their guns in the same fashion as regiments
of cavalry and infantry rallied to their colours.
3. The introduction of rockets and missiles has in some cases changed the nature of the
artillery's equipments. Consequently, the term â Å“gunsâ ? shall be deemed to include all weapon
systems of the artillery, other than small arms, used to inflict damage or casualties on the enemy.
Thus, rocket and missile launchers, despite not being inscribed with the Royal Cypher, will
be accorded compliments when they are on ceremonial parade with formed artillery units or
sub-units.
4. Compliments are not paid by the troops on parade to the guns during roll pasts or other
parade movements. The artillery has no equivalent to the â Å“Trooping the Colourâ ? ceremony. It
should be noted that spectators will pay compliments to the guns, as colours, during a roll past or
during similar movements on formal parades and ceremonies.
5. Although it may be impracticable in modern times to treat guns as colours in nonceremonial
circumstances, they must be accorded the dignity and respect they deserve. Such
practices as smoking on or near the guns, sitting or leaning on them, decorating them for social
occasions and leaving them unprotected are intolerable.

and Bossi i think everybody in the Cbt Arms is going to be missing equipment so no you cant have them back we gave them to you now we got them back ha ha ha  :bullet:

 

[scotty884]

just to add to that.......you can have them back. Take'em go ahead.  And Ty for the bit on the colours but I was more looking for peoples opinions on the matter, shoulda phrased it differently huh?  I asked my BSM on this topic and he stateted that as long as the cypher isn't stamped on he dont care about it.  Maybe that might shed some thought around........

 

[The Bat]

well i have to concur with your BSM if it does not have the cypher then its not our colours, but who knows maybe we will get the cypher put on, but then how will we do the roll past, lol, very carefully i guess not unless we put then on our backs with Cf's on and walking in snowshoes lol

 

[Old Sweat]

The mortars may not have the royal cypher on the tubes yet, but batteries would take them to war, and therefore they are our colours. This is not the first time the regiment has been equipped with mortars. We had light batteries with 4.2-inch mortars in the Korean War era up to about 1957-1958 and then 4 RCHA was a mortar regiment from about 1964 on, and of course 1 Airborne Battery took their 81-mm mortars to Cyprus in 1974. It also seems to me that a mortar troop from 1 RCHA engaged some targets in Bosnia in the nineties, albeit with illumination.

The army in its infinite wisdom - and you can read that any way you wish - has decided the artillery will use mortars. Whatever we use, we always do our very best, and we all know it, so this discussion may be irrelevant.

By the way, who engraved the cypher on the Blowpipe missile?

 

[The Bat]

"Roger" Old Sweat i guess our colors will be what the Army gives use as Gunners as long as its indirect

 

[Old Sweat]

Rocky88

And we will be the best gunners in the world, no matter what they give us. That's what we do.

 

[rocky1fac]

This thread is a little out of date but I was reading and the mortar issue as colours Uhm...

4 RCHA I dont think was ever a motar regt it had SSM Bty and the airborne Bty designated Z (oh the mighty Z we miss you so) Last time Z bty was on parade it paraded its original air bourne mortar the 4.2 and gave it as a gift to 1 RCHA on Z Btys disbandment. That mortar should be now be in Shilo. AS for the colour of course its going to be the colour even though it will be a hugh error to go away from 155. Im drinking out of a Z Bty mug as I write this. To all those reading that wore the original maroon, role on you ZULU warriors.

 

[Old Sweat]

The following discussion of the conversion of 4 RCHA to a mortar regiment is taken from RCHA - Right of the Line page 215:

In short order we not only had "K" Battery [equipped with 4.2-inch mortars] ready to deploy with the NATO ACE Force, but also had Maj Don Creighton's "W" Battery trained for peacekeeping duty in Cyprus, while Conrod's "L" Battery continued its close support of 2 CIB. The following year, 1965, saw the conversion of both "L" Battery (by then Maj Tony Sosnkowski's) and a revived "M" Battery (Maj Doug Baker's) to 4.2" mortars, with which we conducted our regimental practice camp in Petawawa that summer.

I am afraid I do not understand the reference to the SSM Battery and the airborne battery.

 

[rocky1fac]

I cant reach my gunner of canada my arms to short. I better ease off on the twinkies.

I stand corrected like I said I was not sure. The reference to SSM Bty was that I thought SSM Bty was always a part of 4 RCHA. As with Z Bty (Canadas first Air bourne Bty) I thought it was part of 4 when it was reroled to mortars. Dont know just asking. 

 

[Old Sweat]

Rocky

Okay. The two SSM Btys were formed from 1 LAA Regt RCA which was disbanded in the summer of 1960. These batteries - 1 SSM and 2 SSM Trg - then moved, the first to Germany and the second to Shilo. However, the first Honest John rocket was fired in Petawawa in the fall of 1960. It was a winger, but that's another story.

The original Z Battery was an airborne battery, the third in a series starting with 1 Light Battery RCA and then B Battery (para) 1 RCHA. In about 1958, while stationed in Winnipeg. it converted to a medium battery and joined 2 RCHA. When 2 went to Germany, Z Battery transferred to 3 RCHA, still in Winnipeg. It was disbanded in the late-sixties as part of the force reductions of that era. It re-emerged as the flyover battery in 1 RCHA, but that is where your experience is probably much more current than mine.

 

[scotty884]

Just like to thank everyone who has commented on this subject.  Just thought I'd a few things A: in ref. to the question, I put it out there cause some people in The Regiment still consider the 81mm an infantry weapon thats y I threw the question out here.  B:  I think whatever we use for indirect fire 155 to whatever pee shooter DND give us, as long as a gunner is aiming and firing that piece its the colour of the King of Battle.  So I may not like the mortars but still treat them as our own.

 

[sjm]

If you are talking "colours" as in people must salute them.  Keep in mind the guns are only saluted when they are in tow/mobile.  Once a gun is stationary or deployed it is no longer saluted.

I wouldn't mind saluting a light mortar if I saw it being dragged behind a vehicle on the end of a rope...