Question of the Hour

[3rd Herd]

Do you mean "Malmedy"?

The Malmedy Massacre is regarded as the worst atrocity committed against American troops during the course of the war in Europe.

For your math teacher in return Rifleman:
Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers."the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."

Source:Ambrose Stephen, Bischof Günter Eisenhower and the German PoWs: Facts Against Falsehood, Louisiana State University Press, Baton Rouge and London, 1992;

 

[Mineguy]

HIt your teacher with this one, pics and all....

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28529&highlight=malmedy

And ask your teacher do they know anything about the biggest unknown in the west allied massacre at bleiburg austria....I bet not!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre

 

[geo]

The whole story of Bleiburg is, in fact, quite interesting.
what was done to the Royalist Yugoslavs & the yugoslav refugees of the time is a real travesty to justice...
Much evidence points to the future PM Harold MacMillan. It would appear that he meddled in the background, while keeping General Alexander in the dark on what was being done.
A Cdn Major Paul Barre, on loan to the British army of occupation was a bit of a "fly in the ointment".... he refused to return the civilian refugees until such time as he could get written instructions on the matter.... in the end, he met Gen Alexander, the order was rescinded (albeit after the Yugoslav soldiers were forcibly repatriated to Tito and his partisans).

 

[RiflemanPhil]

Correct on that one about Malmady (and my mistake on spelling)
I gave him that response (before I had looked it up), and he said that wasnt all he was thinking about. He thought that some Canadians were also executed. I take it that his information was incorrect...?

 

[stukirkpatrick]

Perhaps he is thinking of the infamous executions of Canadian prisoners by the HitlerJugend under Kurt Meyer shortly after DDay in Normandy?

 

[3rd Herd]

Perhaps he is thinking of the infamous executions of Canadian prisoners by the HitlerJugend under Kurt Meyer shortly after DDay in Normandy?

A sensation was caused in Allied Headquarters when reports came through that a considerable number of Canadian soldiers were shot after being taken prisoner by the 12th. SS Panzer Division ‘Hitler Jugend’. On the morning of June 8, thirty seven Canadians were taken prisoner by the 2nd Battalion of the 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment. The prisoners were marched across country to the H/Q of the 2nd Battalion. In the village of Le Mesnil-Patty they were then ordered to sit down in a field with their wounded in the center. In a short while a half track arrived with eight or nine SS soldiers brandishing their machine pistols. Advancing in line towards the prisoners they opened fire killing thirty five men. Two of the Canadians ran for their lives and escaped the slaughter but were rounded up by a different German unit to spend the rest of the war in a POW camp. First to make contact with the Canadians was a combat group led by Obersturmbannfuhrer Karl-Heinz Milius and supported by the Prinz Battalion. Near the villages of Authie and Buron, a number of Canadians of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, were taken prisoner. Numbering around forty, they were individually killed on the march back to the rear. Eight were ordered to remove their helmets and then shot with automatic rifles. Their bodies were dragged out on to the road and left to be run over by trucks and tanks. French civilians pulled the bodies back on to the pavement but were ordered to stop and to drag the bodies back onto the road again.

On the 7th and 8th of June, in the grounds of the Abbaye Ardenne, the headquarters of SS Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer’s 25th Panzer Grenadiers, twenty of the Canadians were shot. After being taken prisoner they were locked up in a stable and being called out by name they emerged from the doorway only to be shot in the back of the head. During the afternoon of June 8, twenty six Canadians were shot at the Chateau d’Audrie after being taken prisoner by a Reconnaissance Battalion of the SS Hitler Jugend. Other units of the German forces in France called the Hitler Jugend Division the ‘Murder Division’. After the war, investigations established that separate atrocities were committed in 31 different incidents involving 134 Canadians, 3 British and 1 American. Brought to trial before a Canadian military court at Aurich in Germany on  December 28, 1945, Kurt Meyer was sentenced to death but later reprieved and spent six years in a Canadian jail at New Brunswick before being transferred to the prison at Werl in Germany where he was released on parole on September 7, 1954. He died of a heart attack on December 23, 1961, at age 51.

 

[redleafjumper]

When I visited the Abbey d' Ardennes in '92, I was told by Jacques Vico  (he found the bodies) that the Canadians killed at the abbey (Vico family farm as the order was defunct) were mostly killed by being beaten to death by hammers, rifle butts and that only a few were shot.  The hands of a least a few of the bodies were found bound.  I believe that the testimony of a Polish conscript who witnessed the event and testified at SS Brigades Fuherer Meyer's (CO 12th SS Panzer Division - Hitler Jugend) trial bears out what Mr. Vico told us.  The number killed there is disputed, some sources say 27 and others have different numbers. There is a memorial in the garden that lists several names, but I don't recall how many, I'd have to check my slides.

Here's a question, at which commonwealth war cemetary are most of the victims buried from the massacre at Abbey d'Ardennes?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

For your math teacher in return Rifleman:
Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers."the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."

Source:Ambrose Stephen, Bischof Günter Eisenhower and the German PoWs: Facts Against Falsehood, Louisiana State University Press, Baton Rouge and London, 1992;

I think that it is important to point out that the allegation above was made in the 1989 book Other Losses by J. Bacque, which has been controversial to say the least.  The source listed above (Ambose and Gunter) was a collection of essays published in response to the release of Other Losses that set out to refute the allegation, citing "glaring errors...in reserach and conclusions."  The jacket cover of "Eisenhower and the German PoWs" began with the above quote to serve as an introduction to the purpose of the book, namely to refute the allegation.

The researchers in "Eisenhower and the German PoWs" come to a figure of 56,000 German PoWs dying in Western Allied capitivity in the post-war period, or a loss rate of 1% (there were some 5,000,000 German PoWs).  This is shown as comparable to other loss rates in WW II camps.  The Ambrose book does point out poor conditions in several camps, but also points out poor conditions across Europe.  There were "Other Losses" listed in Allied PoW figures (around 600,000), but these related to the release of Volksturm (young boys and old men) who were immediately released.  This distinguished them from PoWs "discharged" later in the occupation.

Please note that I am not saying that 56,000 deaths is an acceptable number, nor that I am a scholar on the issue.  I just want to point out that the issue is controversial and interested individuals should perhaps read both books.

 

[muffin]

Here's a question, at which commonwealth war cemetary are most of the victims buried from the massacre at Abbey d'Ardennes?

I believe hte Garden is the Caen Memorial Garden.
Is the Cemetery the Cemetery at Bayeux?

Maggie

 

[redleafjumper]

Close Maggie, there are two cemeteries that I am aware of that have the victims of the Abbaye d'Ardennes massacre.  Bretteville-sur-Laize Commonwealth War cemetery, and Beny-sur-Mer Commonwealth War Cemetery.  My recollections from my visits there is that most are buried at Bretteville-sur-Laize.  Many of those soldiers were members of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Also Sappers from 6Fd. Company were murdered also.If my old gray matter serves me right I think 4 Sappers.I forget their names.
I'll check with the curator of the Unit museum.

 

[baboon6]

I thought many of those murdered were from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes, there were also Royal Winnipeg Rifles and Sappers killed.  I will dig into my notes when I get home as I think that there were also some members of other units.  One of the problems with accounting for the casualties in the massacre(s) is that there was more than one incident of Canadian prisoners of war being executed in the Normandy campaign.  Some victims are included in the Abbaye d'Ardennes figures when they may have been killed elsewhere and the sources have some variance.  War certainly can bring out the worst in people as well as the best.

 

[redleafjumper]

I couldn't locate my notes, but I did find this entry at wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Ardennes.  I note that there is no mention of Royal Winnipeg Rifles or Sappers, but I am sure that there were some of those prisoners that were killed in the area.  I note that the names on the site don't add up to 27 and these were discovered soon after the place was captured.  Jaques Vico told us that he found bodies after the family moved back into the Abbaye at the end of the war, and though it wasn't clear, I suspect that these were additional bodies to those found after the place was captured.  I note that I earlier stated that Meyer commanded 12 SS Panzer, but in fact he commanded the 25th SS - Panzergrenadier Regiment of the 12th SS Panzer Division.  Lest we forget. 

From wikipedia:

"The abbaye d'Ardenne (Ardenne Abbey) is a site in Saint-Germain-la-Blanche-Herbe, near Caen, France containing a chapel built in 1121 and other medieval buildings. It is most notorious, though, for being the site of a massacre of prisoners of war during World War Two.

In June 1944, during the Battle of Normandy, l'abbaye d'Ardenne was the location of the headquarters of SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25, commanded by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Meyer. On June 7, eleven captured Canadian soldiers of The North Nova Scotia Highlanders and the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment were taken to l'abbaye d'Ardenne and killed by the Hitler Youth 12th SS Panzer Division: Private Ivan Crowe, Private Charles Doucette, Corporal Joseph MacIntyre, Private Hollis McKeil, Private James Moss, Trooper James Bolt, Trooper George Gill, Trooper Thomas Henry, Trooper Roger Lockhead, Trooper Harold Philp, and Lieutenant Thomas Windsor.

Seven more North Nova Scotia Highlanders were killed there the next day: Private Walter Doherty, Private Reginald Keeping, Private Hugh MacDonald, Private George McNaughton, Private George Millar, Private Thomas Mont, Private Raymond Moore.

Elements of The Regina Rifle Regiment liberated l'abbaye d'Ardenne after an intense, bloody battle the following month, at which time evidence of the attrocity was discovered. Following the end of the war, the SS commander Kurt Meyer was charged with five war crimes, three of which he was convicted of. These included responsibility for the killings at l'abbaye d'Ardenne, and for ordering his men to take no prisoners. Meyer was imprisoned until 1954, when he was released from a West German prison."

 

[Riobeard]

If you haven't seen it yet, the latest book Holding Juno By Mark Zuehlke is a great read on the subject being discussed here.  It has great references and well researched info.
http://www.zuehlke.ca/military.php

 

[redleafjumper]

Probably time for another question.  What place did Napoleon occupy before he landed in Africa to capture Cairo?  Where did he land after occupying that place and prior to the capture of Cairo?

 

[Shec]

Don't know the answer to the first question but I believe Alexandria is the answer to the second?

 

[redleafjumper]

That's correct, Napoleon did land at Alexandria.  Anyone on the first part?

 

[larry Strong]

On the 12 of June , he captured Malta. And in so far as Kurt Meyer goes your not really wrong, as on the night of 17 June he took command of the 12th SS. He was at 33, the youngest Divisional Commander in the German Armed Forces.

 

[redleafjumper]

So you mean I made a mistake in that I thought that I was wrong?  ;D


And yes, the answer is Napoleon occupied  Malta.

Here's a real trivia question.  What is the type of tank mocked up to look like a Tiger 1 in the movie "Saving Private Ryan".  It is the same sort of vehicle used in the series "Band of Brothers".  What I want to know is:  What is the real designation of the real tank that has been made to look like a Tiger in those shows and what is its country of origin?