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Question re: German invasion of Poland, Sept 1939

Well, had Canada been invaded on 1 September 1939, we would have had one understrength brigade of infantry (spread from coast to coast) with a few thousand Militia armed with SMLEs, sword bayonets, and drill purpose only Lewis Guns; ancient howitzers, a handful of tanks with minimal armament.  I rather doubt we would have done half as good as the Poles...
 
A  couple of comments based on what I have gleaned over the years.

-The Poles had recently purchased a number of Bofors towed AA guns and new 37mm AT guns and had issued at least some of these, so to say that they had only a few obsolete weapons of this type is probably not correct. As well as these systems, they made use of anti-armour capable weapons mounted in prepared fortifications (but not enough and not in the right places) and armoured trains. Before we laugh at the trains, I recall reading of at least one engagement in which a train (and its integral rail-carried tanks) successfully drove off a panzer assault, as the train had heavier armour and bigger guns than the German panzers. So, the Poles were also capable of improvisation against tanks;

-Polish cavalry still carried the designations "Lancers", "Uhlans", etc but to a great extent they were trained as mounted infantry. And, let's not forget, the Red Army made successful use of cavalry formations up to Corps size all through the war;

-to say that the Poles did not understand the "military art" is IMHO a strange statement: their performance in the Russo-Polish war alone, especially their last-ditch defeat of the Red Army in front of Warsaw, should discount that statement. Faced with the German onslaught, the Polish Army did not fall apart at the tactical level: it fought some very stubborn delays and withdrawals, and launched at least one operational-level counterattack west of Warsaw that scared the Germans quite badly (although they rallied and crushed it). Where things broke down (again IMHO) was at the operational/strategic level interface, as the national command and control system (based on civil telephone circuits) and the supporting infrastructure needed to fight a war, both collapsed when the Polish forces needed them most. This meant that the Poles could neither gather info nor implement decisions quicky at that level, and the ability to rapidly redeploy and sustain troops was lost. Against the Germans this was probably a guarantee of failure;  and

-IIRC the Poles did not keep any significant forces deployed against the Russian border. They accepted a very heavy strategic risk in deploying all of their Armies and Operational Groups against the Germans, with a Reserve in the Warsaw region. As far as I can recall, all that was deployed in the East were a few battalions of infantry and cavalry  belonging to the KOP, the frontier defence corps. IMHO there was no significant Polish resistance to the Red Army because there was nothing there to resist with.

Cheers
 
One other aspect of this 1939 Polish invasion - It was the last time more or less, as a whole that the Nazi German forces could concentrate all their strength on one target. For the invasion of France, large numbers of occupation troops hard to be left in Poland. In effect with time, as country after country fell to Nazi- Germany, more and more troops had to be employed on garrison and anti-partisan activities.

You know, I cannot watch any pre-war Polish cinema - there are surviving examples - as I know the fate of those who appeared. By the way, I live in Lublin, Poland, about 2 km away from the Majdanek Concentration Camp... it is a dead place - no birds sing there....
 
....and armoured trains. Before we laugh at the trains, I recall reading of at least one
engagement in which a train (and its integral rail-carried tanks) successfully drove
off a panzer assault, as the train had heavier armour and bigger guns than the
German panzers.


The armoured train nr. 15 (former "Smierc")
....The train nr 15 showed quite efficient in supporting Polish defenders, firing at pointed
targets and helping to repell enemy attacks. On 19 September it was even fighting an
artillery duel with its German opponent - armoured train PanzerZug 7, acting on a track
Nasielsk-Pomiechowek.......

Armoured train nr. 55 (former "Bartosz Glowacki")
....The train first came into action on 14 September near Zabinka railway station, where a
reconnaissance unit of the 3rd Panzer Division was reported. Four train's tankettes (of
armoured draisines) were sent to attack the German armoured car platoon, that was
standing on a bridge, but 3 tankettes were hit and destroyed (without crew losses,
luckily). An attempt of using the train's assault platoon failed in the German cars' fire.
Only the train's artillery made the enemy unit withdraw.
Soon after, the train, standing on a crossing, halted and made retreat a column of the
division, burning a few vehicles. Taking cover behind a hill, a group of tanks of the 5th
regiment made an attempt of cutting the train's way off, but the train's artillery foiled their
movement. Next, the train was shelled by a battery of the 75th artillery regiment, and
after about 45-min duel, it withdrew to Brzesc. One of the train's Renault tank draisines
was damaged and left. In this combat, train nr. 55 succesfully managed to delay a
movement of the German armoured division......

A large portion of the Polish Armoured Train force were captured and used by the
German and Russians through out the remainder of the war.
 
Thanks for that post. I knew I wasn't imagining things...

Cheers
 
http://ass2000.tripod.com/2fallweiss.html

This is a very interesting site that makes the point that the Poles were well aware of their situation and had begun to prepare for war against Germany, although their faith in the Allies doing anything useful in a timely manner was obviously misplaced. Of particular interest are their very ambitious mechanization plans. From what I have read of the German Reichsheer in the pre-1933 period, this Polish attack was exactly the sort of thing that Germany, with its 100,000 man army on light scales of equipment, feared as a real threat.

Cheers
 
Another aspect of this 1939 invasion was the sudden change in the balance of power - following the 1938 annexation of Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany ( I use that term to differentiate the various regimes -  I apologise if it is incorrect) - How much new armour and weaponry and general military equipment (radios, telephone sets, telephone cables) entered the Nazi German forces? Quite a change in one year...

I believe one of those train sets is one display at Poland's railway museum. Sadly I cannot verify this - no wheels, no chance of obtaining wheels on a teacher's salary ( roughly 400 Cdn dollars a month - sad isn't it - thank your lucky stars you live in Canada). I think this site was where info on these trains was posted  http://railwaygun.co.uk/. This site deals with Polish armour of that time  http://republika.pl/derela/armcarpl.htm#tk (trains too) . While this site deals with Polish aces  http://marcin_w.tripod.com/index-paces.html . Finally this site deals with Polish light artillery  albeit from a different era
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm . Polish history is being rediscovered by Poland's youth - a good thing - after-all who owns your history, owns you...
 
Got the granddaughter here so it's hard to get into the books, but IIRC at least 2 Pz div (Rommels 7 Pz included) were equipt with Skoda LT vz. 35 and LT vz. 38 tanks, not to mention the marders and Hetzers that were built on their chasis's, They had a large automotive and arnament industry, that the Third Reich was not slow to incorporate into the Wehrmacht

It would sure be nice to see some photo's of that train.

Here's where I found the info on the trains, quite an informative site.


http://derela.republika.pl/index.htm
 
My dad aways told me the Germans marched in backwards and told the Poles they were leaving.  :salute:
 
If anybody's still interested, an excellent reference on the Polish Campaign is the Osprey Campaign Series volume on Poland 1939. It is well written, apparently quite well researched, and makes an excellent effort to dispel some of the tired old "conventional wisdom" myths about the Poles. It is very well mapped and illustrated, including an interesting graphic of an anti-tank gun crew from a Polish Cav Bde holding German armour. The gun crew is supported by Armoured Train No 53 Smialy, which is shown using its 75mm cannon against the thin armour of the German panzers.(You can read more about Smialy and other Polish armoured trains at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/prod/dialspace/town/pipexdsl/o/aopt91/railgun/Content/Armoured%20Trains/Polish.html

I highly recommend this little book.

Cheers
 
I daresay Osprey is doing a lot to lift its reputation out of the gutter; they used to be a bit of a laughing stock in "serious" military circles and "amateur history" circles alike, but I think the last five years or so have seen a preponderance of useful and generally well done titles being released, especially on "unsexy" topics.  Some publishers continue to put out tedious works on hot topics like SS Tigers that sell well despite their mediocrity, but Osprey is doing a real service by providing affordable primers on subjects spanning the entire universe of military history.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I daresay Osprey is doing a lot to lift its reputation out of the gutter; they used to be a bit of a laughing stock in "serious" military circles and "amateur history" circles alike, but I think the last five years or so have seen a preponderance of useful and generally well done titles being released, especially on "unsexy" topics.   Some publishers continue to put out tedious works on hot topics like SS Tigers that sell well despite their mediocrity, but Osprey is doing a real service by providing affordable primers on subjects spanning the entire universe of military history.

I have to agree with you to a certain extent here. While I stand by the Polish Campaign volume, I should also add that I took out five other volumes on various campaigns, and have read them all. While they are generally not bad, I find that the text editing is a bit weak in places. Sentences are sometimes difficult to follow (or refer to things that were never mentioned previously, leaving you wondering what the point of the reference was), and on several occasions I have noted a weird interchanging of formation titles, as though the writer though that Corps/Division/unit were all the same word. Sloppy editing, I think, or perhaps some amateurwriters. Still, as quick overviews of the various campaigns (they cover about 50 different ones) I don't think they have an equal.

Cheers
 
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