question with rank name

[tlg]

I was wondering with the rank names of Officer Cadet, 2nd Lieutenant, lieutenant colonel, etc. Do you have to say the prefix or can you drop it and just go with the suffix (ie. cadet, lieutenant, colonel, etc.)?

I've searched here but havent really found anything on this matter. If there is a thread could something please point me in the right direction.

This has been bothering me all day, for some reason it just started to bother me.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Mr whatever for cadets, Sir for the rest always worked for me.


However, good question, what is the proper etiquette?  Anyone?

dileas

tess

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Well from 2Lt. on up Sir would surfice. Not too sure about Officer Cadet but to be on the safe side call him Sir.

Or what tess said.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I was wondering with the rank names of Officer Cadet, 2nd Lieutenant, lieutenant colonel, etc. Do you have to say the prefix or can you drop it and just go with the suffix (ie. cadet, lieutenant, colonel, etc.)?

I've searched here but havent really found anything on this matter. If there is a thread could something please point me in the right direction.

This has been bothering me all day, for some reason it just started to bother me.

When an Officer Cadet is addressed I've never heard them referred to as Cadet.....This is so you don't confuse them with a kid who is in Cadets...Air. Army or Navy Cadets....but I'm not sure what they may do  at Royal Military College (RMC).....I've never heard it at a Base. I have heard 2Lt referred to as Lieutenant and Lieutenant Colonels are routinely referred to as Colonel. It is also fairly common to hear a Lieutenant Commander referred to as Commander. I guess it's similar to the common usage of PO (Petty Officer) for a PO1 or PO2...Chief for either a CPO1 or a CPO2'...just my observations.

 

[Torlyn]

Well from 2Lt. on up Sir would surfice. Not too sure about Officer Cadet but to be on the safe side call him Sir.

Or what tess said.

Hmmm...  I didn't think we earned the right to be called Sir until after our commision...  I only ever heard Mr. or Naval Cadet.  (Or a whole pile of expletives, but I'll leave those to your imagination) 

T

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hmmm...  I didn't think we earned the right to be called Sir until after our commision...  I only ever heard Mr. or Naval Cadet.  (Or a whole pile of expletives, but I'll leave those to your imagination) 

T

I thought that was what I said... : hence the Mister for all the cadet types...

dileas

tess

 

[tlg]

Thanks for the help guys, it was just one of those things that was going to annoy me until i found an answer, and the answers I got helped out alot.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I thought that was what I said... : hence the Mister for all the cadet types...

dileas

tess

Quite right...Officer Cadet is not a commissioned officer...therefore not entitled to a salute or to be addressed as sir or ma'am.  It is an appointment not a rank. I remember my Warrant at Chilliwack (BOTC 7708) about an inch from my face hissing...."YOU MISTER D..... HAVE NO RANK, EVEN A PRIVATE HAS A RANK, BUT AN OFFICER CADET IS NOT A RANK YOU ARE LOWER THAN WHALE $HIT!"
The day I graduated and was commissioned he was the first one to salute me and with a big smile on my face I gave him his silver dollar (the tradition is that a newly commissioned officer gives a silver dollar to the first NCM that salutes him or her) he was a cool RCR Warrant Officer...never forgot him and the stuff he taught me....Never Pass a Fault!

 

[tlg]

Quite right...Officer Cadet is not a commissioned officer...therefore not entitled to a salute or to be addressed as sir or ma'am.  It is an appointment not a rank. I remember my Warrant at Chilliwack (BOTC 7708) about an inch from my face hissing...."YOU MISTER D..... HAVE NO RANK, EVEN A PRIVATE HAS A RANK, BUT AN OFFICER CADET IS NOT A RANK YOU ARE LOWER THAN WHALE $HIT!"
The day I graduated and was commissioned he was the first one to salute me and with a big smile on my face I gave him his silver dollar (the tradition is that a newly commissioned officer gives a silver dollar to the first NCM that salutes him or her) he was a cool RCR Warrant Officer...never forgot him and the stuff he taught me....Never Pass a Fault!

And where do you get such silver dollars?

 

[harry8422]

pro patria sir

 

[Shamrock]

Ref: A-AD-200-000/AG-000

CHAPTER 11
MILITARY FORMS OF ADDRESS

GENERAL POLICY
1. This chapter:
     a. amplifies the National Defence Act, Section 21, and Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&O), Article 3.01;
     b. prescribes the correct forms of address for members of the Canadian Forces (CF) and establishes the standard for use by CF members, but
     c. does not preclude the local use of terms or titles based on traditional establishment appointments, e.g., gunner, sergeant-major.

2. In general, CF members may be addressed by either:
     a. Rank and surname;
     b. Rank;
     c. Appointment (including parade appointments); or
     d. Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, or Sir/Ma'am as applicable;



ANNEX A: SHORT FORMS OF ADDRESS

Ranks are in accordance with Schedule 21 to Chapter N-5 of the National Defence Act)

Naval Rank	Short Form of Address	Army / Air Force Rank Grade	Short Form of Address
Admiral	Admiral	General	General
Vice-admiral	Admiral	Lieutenant-General	General
Rear Admiral	Admiral	Major-General	General
Commodore	Commodore	Brigadier-General	General
Captain (N)	Captain	Colonel	Colonel
Commander	Commander	Lieutenant-Colonel	Colonel
Lieutenant-Commander	Lieutenant-Commander	Major	Major
Lieutenant (N)	Lieutenant	Captain	Captain
Sub-Lieutenant	Sub-Lieutenant	Lieutenant	Lieutenant
Acting Sub-Lieutenant	Sub-Lieutenant	Second Lieutenant	Lieutenant
Naval Cadet	Cadet	Officer Cadet	Cadet
Chief-Petty Officer, 1st Class	Chief-Petty Officer, or Chief	Chief Warrant Officer	Mr/Mrs/Ms (followed by Surname)
Chief-Petty Officer, 2nd class	Chief-Petty Officer, or Chief	Master Warrant Officer	Master Warrant Officer
Petty Officer, 1st Class	Petty Officer or PO	Warrant Officer	Warrant Officer or Warrant
Petty Officer, 2nd Class	Petty Officer or PO	Sergeant	Sergeant
Master Seaman	Master Seaman	Master Corporal	Master Corporal
Leading Seaman	Leading Seaman	Corporall	Corporal
Able Seaman	Able Seaman	Private	Private
Oridnary Seaman	Ordinary Seaman

FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
     A. Officers shall be addressed –
          (1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
          (2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
               (a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
               (b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma'am as applicable; and
          (3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma'am as applicable.
     B. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks -
          (1) by rank, by rank or surname, or by appointment; or
          (2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
               (a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
               (c) b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma'am as appropriate.
     C. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.

INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal orrespondence.

11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.



QR&O 1.02 Definitions:
"officer" means
(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,
(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;


* For the love of all things green, blue, and black bear in mind this is what the "book" says.  In reality, CWO's and MWO's are called Sir, and OCdt's are called names. 

** Neil McKay posted the QR&O before me, this edit was ongoing as he posted.  Hey, tables ain't easy!

 

[Neill McKay]

Quite right...Officer Cadet is not a commissioned officer...therefore not entitled to a salute or to be addressed as sir or ma'am.  It is an appointment not a rank.

I disagree on both points.  On the first, a CWO is also not a commissioned officer, but is addressed as sir or ma'am.  On the second, the National Defence Act provides that:

“officer” means

( a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,

( b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, ...

 

[Trinity]

I disagree on both points.  On the first, a CWO is also not a commissioned officer, but is addressed as sir or ma'am.  On the second, the National Defence Act provides that:

“officer” means

( a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,

( b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, ...

Yes.. but that's because regulation states we call a MWO or CWO sir. (no I'm not looking it up)
Besides, bringing in CWO is confusing the argument with something not part of the debate.

Your second point.. is convincing enough.  I would have kept your second point and scrapped
the first.

 

[Meridian]

I was under the understanding having previously been an officer cadet that any person who has the term "officer" in their rank is entitled to be referred to as "Sir".  (includes warrants, OCdts, and all the commissioned ranks).

Officer Cadets are Subordinate Officers; they do actually figure in with the officer ranks.  Insofar as "Candidates" go, I suppose they are equivalent to Officer Candidates,  but the line stops somewhere.

Example:  Person who receives commission at end of MOC, or person who receives commission at end of BOTP.  the difference is the university degree,  but really, does that make one more deserving of "sir" than the other?

Course, these were just my impressions from the low end.

I also was taught that using only the rank of a superior officer (without their name) was particularly a faux-pas and bred familiarity or was too easily viewed as condescending.

Ie" Excuse me, Captain..."  Vs.  "Excuse me, Captain Jones, could you..."  but I dont know if thats really followed in practice.


I believe I also discussed this on here with others, and was told that if you are in the office, typically those officers in the same company will refer to each other by their first names,  but when outside with the troops, that is out the window.


Can anyone confirm/deny any of this?

 

[orange.paint]

I also was taught that using only the rank of a superior officer (without their name) was particularly a faux-pas and bred familiarity or was too easily viewed as condescending.

Ie" Excuse me, Captain..."   Vs.  "Excuse me, Captain Jones, could you..."  but I dont know if thats really followed in practice.


I believe I also discussed this on here with others, and was told that if you are in the office, typically those officers in the same company will refer to each other by their first names,  but when outside with the troops, that is out the window.

It may be condescending depending on how you say it!Sometimes when an officer is giving you a quick order i.e "could you hurry and run down to transport and sign for a panel van" a simple "captain" wouldn't be condescending.More brevity than anything.

It all has to do with tone in my opinion.Like the use of "seargent-major' instead of sir,I believe its said with the highest respect in my books.

As the 48th said officer cadets use Mr or Miss/Mrs.

I do however hate when someone is talking about a group of officers and refer to them as "the sir's"that bugs me to no end."Or have you see the sir?"

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I was under the understanding having previously been an officer cadet that any person who has the term "officer" in their rank is entitled to be referred to as "Sir".  (includes warrants, OCdts, and all the commissioned ranks).

Officer Cadets are Subordinate Officers; they do actually figure in with the officer ranks.  Insofar as "Candidates" go, I suppose they are equivalent to Officer Candidates,  but the line stops somewhere.

Example:  Person who receives commission at end of MOC, or person who receives commission at end of BOTP.  the difference is the university degree,  but really, does that make one more deserving of "sir" than the other?

Course, these were just my impressions from the low end.

I also was taught that using only the rank of a superior officer (without their name) was particularly a faux-pas and bred familiarity or was too easily viewed as condescending.

Ie" Excuse me, Captain..."  Vs.  "Excuse me, Captain Jones, could you..."  but I dont know if thats really followed in practice.


I believe I also discussed this on here with others, and was told that if you are in the office, typically those officers in the same company will refer to each other by their first names,  but when outside with the troops, that is out the window.


Can anyone confirm/deny any of this?

Only CWOs are referred to as "sir" by ranks more junior to themselves and as "Mr. xxxxx".  They (along with other WO and Senior NCOs) may also be addressed by title, thus:  RSM, SSM, CSM, TQ, RQ, etc..  I have a terrible habit of calling all CWOs "RSM" and MWOs "Sarn't Major" although I'm incorrect (you can take the bear out of the Regiment, but can't take the Regiment out of the bear...).

Besides CWOs, only Commissioned Officers rate a "sir/ma'am".  An Officer Cadet may be called "sir/ma'am", but this isn't, strictly speaking, required.  An Officer Cadet should be referred to by rank or as "Mr/Ms."  Only commissioned officers are saluted.

Calling a Senior Officer (eg: "Colonel") by rank is indeed a sign of familiarity and is something that should be indulged in carefully after developing a working relationship.  It is considered polite to address all ranks - Privates included - by full rank and name.  Everyone has earned their rank and deserves to be addressed properly. 

Junior Officers (2nd Lieutenant, Lieutenant and Captain) always call senior officers (Major and higher) "sir/ma'am".  They - in the Army - use first names amongst themselves and can be addressed by a Senior Officer by first name, although the reverse is a significant faux pas and should never be done unless between old peers in private.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

When I was on course I was addressed by all of the staff as Sir.  Sir you have completely failed to get all of your section to finish their paperwork.  (while doing drill) Sir quit flapping your arms,  you're not a f***** chicken!  I was told that the only difference between the first 8 weeks of training for officers and NCMs is that officers are treated much more roughly,  and are called Sir.  I am not saluted, I don't have a commission, but I am addressed as Sir.  (I never even thought about it,  I should take a look at the rules)

There were a few times a staff member called me pvt, or boy.  (I was on course with 100 other privates)  One actually apologised, another just looked awkward. But they all called me Sir. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

You will never be wrong addressing someone unfamiliar to you by their full rank and name.  After that, it becomes dependent on:

personalities
situation
place
time
tone
tact
familiarity level
presence of others
experience
local custom (unit, corps, service, ...)
etc.

And each of these factors interacts with the others.  There really is no simple formula, and what works with one cannot be used as a guarantee that the same behaviour will be warmly received by the next.

 

[Good2Golf]

Interestingly, it is not uncommon to see francophone officers (or culturally savvy, bilange anglos) address a more senior officer whom the member respects in the possesive, i.e. "mon general" / "mon colonel", etc... in place of monsieur.

G2G

 

[dglad]

And then, of course, there are the quirks that don't fit with anything written down.  In my Regiment, the CO is referred to as "Colonel" by all officers, regardless of their rank ("Good evening, Colonel...Excuse me, Colonel...").  It's a Highland thing (although I don't how many Highland Regiments actually practice it).