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RCMP New Firearms Required Discussion- Split From New MP Decal Thread

Weinie

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The CZ-75 platform (which includes the shadow) is basically a Browning hi-power with higher capacity, DA/SA, and no magazine disconnect ‘safety’.

One of those variants with the ambidextrous safety, or preferably a decocker would be a excellent service pistol which would last many decades in service.

I am a little biased because I own a CZ-75 but I would carry that pistol without any worry of it failing me. Certainly prefer it to any of the more modern pistols I have handled. I can’t speak to the newest variants of it, but I have heard no complaints from those I know who shoot them.
The CZ P-07 looks like a nice little gun.:cool:
 

RedFive

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The CZ-75 platform (which includes the shadow) is basically a Browning hi-power with higher capacity, DA/SA, and no magazine disconnect ‘safety’.

One of those variants with the ambidextrous safety, or preferably a decocker would be a excellent service pistol which would last many decades in service.

I am a little biased because I own a CZ-75 but I would carry that pistol without any worry of it failing me. Certainly prefer it to any of the more modern pistols I have handled. I can’t speak to the newest variants of it, but I have heard no complaints from those I know who shoot them.
I don't have a bias against the CZ, I just cringe to think of what we would end up with if such factors as the MSP or Canadian content were forced upon us. Maybe it would be great. Given Federal Government procurement track records, asking for a circle and ending up with a rectangle is likely. So I think perhaps not.

Like I said though, irrelevant as its an all metal frame hammer fired pistol and those are both specifically excluded by the requirements.
 

Haggis

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With no domestic civilian market in Canada will it still be sound business for the major handgun manufacturers to maintain a dealer/distributor network in Canada?

One can expect that the cost per unit of any new police handguns will be increase significantly. Maybe this won't be a concern for the RCMP, CAF and CBSA because they would buy in the tens of thousands within a government where the budget will balance itself. But for small police services buying in the tens or hundreds, this is gonna hurt a lot.
 

Good2Golf

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With no domestic civilian market in Canada will it still be sound business for the major handgun manufacturers to maintain a dealer/distributor network in Canada?

One can expect that the cost per unit of any new police handguns will be increase significantly. Maybe this won't be a concern for the RCMP, CAF and CBSA because they would buy in the tens of thousands within a government where the budget will balance itself. But for small police services buying in the tens or hundreds, this is gonna hurt a lot.
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Good2Golf

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Justin should have never cut his hair. He lacks panache without the flow 😎
…clearly he somehow escaped (wandered away?) from Katie Telford, Gerald Butts and his handlers…stumbled into a local barber shop and said “Surprise me!”

Bet you his handlers can’t wait until ‘Dumb & Dumber’ grows out…
 

daftandbarmy

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…clearly he somehow escaped (wandered away?) from Katie Telford, Gerald Butts and his handlers…stumbled into a local barber shop and said “Surprise me!”

Bet you his handlers can’t wait until ‘Dumb & Dumber’ grows out…

dumb and dumber GIF
 

Eaglelord17

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I don't have a bias against the CZ, I just cringe to think of what we would end up with if such factors as the MSP or Canadian content were forced upon us. Maybe it would be great. Given Federal Government procurement track records, asking for a circle and ending up with a rectangle is likely. So I think perhaps not.

Like I said though, irrelevant as its an all metal frame hammer fired pistol and those are both specifically excluded by the requirements.
True enough. I look at those requirements and question if they understand what they are excluding. Plenty of other options than those limiting factors listed, which if done in a fair and open trial/competition could win out.

Personally I have always been partial to DA/SA guns for the idea of carrying, but that is just me. I just don't trust a the shoe trigger safeties myself, I would be afraid of a cop pumped up on adrenaline accidentally shooting someone because of it, especially with a 5-6lb pull (as listed in the requirements).
 

RedFive

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True enough. I look at those requirements and question if they understand what they are excluding. Plenty of other options than those limiting factors listed, which if done in a fair and open trial/competition could win out.

Personally I have always been partial to DA/SA guns for the idea of carrying, but that is just me. I just don't trust a the shoe trigger safeties myself, I would be afraid of a cop pumped up on adrenaline accidentally shooting someone because of it, especially with a 5-6lb pull (as listed in the requirements).
Most police departments in Canada carry triggers like that (usually Glock) and there's no epidemic of negligent discharges under stress.
 

KevinB

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True enough. I look at those requirements and question if they understand what they are excluding. Plenty of other options than those limiting factors listed, which if done in a fair and open trial/competition could win out.

Personally I have always been partial to DA/SA guns for the idea of carrying, but that is just me. I just don't trust a the shoe trigger safeties myself, I would be afraid of a cop pumped up on adrenaline accidentally shooting someone because of it, especially with a 5-6lb pull (as listed in the requirements).
It has been shown in repeated agency studies that handguns with very heavy (relatively) trigger pulls are actually a significant liability.

New York City with their Glock triggers are pretty much the gold standard for showing as to why a heavier trigger is a larger danger to the public.
 

Eaglelord17

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It has been shown in repeated agency studies that handguns with very heavy (relatively) trigger pulls are actually a significant liability.

New York City with their Glock triggers are pretty much the gold standard for showing as to why a heavier trigger is a larger danger to the public.
I am talking about the initial pull, not having a heavy trigger the whole way.

There has been many cases of people accidentally shooting glocks when unintended, they even have a term for shooting yourself in the leg accidentally, ‘Glock Leg’.

Personally I am not comfortable with my ‘safety’ being pulling the trigger when there is no added weight or other feature to make it more difficult to fire. We can argue about training all we want but at the end of the day certain features lend themselves to certain outcomes. The magazine disconnect on the hi-powers being a great example of a feature that can lead to NDs but training can prevent.
 

RedFive

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I am talking about the initial pull, not having a heavy trigger the whole way.

There has been many cases of people accidentally shooting glocks when unintended, they even have a term for shooting yourself in the leg accidentally, ‘Glock Leg’.

Personally I am not comfortable with my ‘safety’ being pulling the trigger when there is no added weight or other feature to make it more difficult to fire. We can argue about training all we want but at the end of the day certain features lend themselves to certain outcomes. The magazine disconnect on the hi-powers being a great example of a feature that can lead to NDs but training can prevent.
Heavy trigger pulls lead to a lack of accuracy under stress. NYPD has demonstrated this thoroughly. Chuck your first round past the target and into a new mom with a baby carriage and you're gonna wish you had a normal trigger.

If GBA+ is to be believed a disparity is passing scores for members who lack grip strength.

I can say with absolute certainty that the only people who struggled with shooting the chunk at Depot when I was there were females and people with small hands, and some of the males who lacked grip strength. I struggled to adapt to the pistol myself, and now I never shoot my personal pistols because every time I do my shot with my issued pistol goes to hell in a handbasket.

I'm looking forward to a pistol that isn't almost as old as I am, and one I can trust my life to.

My current chunk for reasons unknown broke at some point during a shift a couple months ago. The hammer is supposed to sit at a quarter cock when loaded in the holster and at the end of the night I noticed it wasn't. A couple attempts to reset it were unsuccessful. If I had needed it that night, no matter how many IA's I did it would not have fired.

I sent it to the arsenal. The sent it back the first time still broken. They fixed it a second time and sent it back with no explanation whatsoever. I do not trust it anymore.
 

Eaglelord17

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Heavy trigger pulls lead to a lack of accuracy under stress. NYPD has demonstrated this thoroughly. Chuck your first round past the target and into a new mom with a baby carriage and you're gonna wish you had a normal trigger.

If GBA+ is to be believed a disparity is passing scores for members who lack grip strength.

I can say with absolute certainty that the only people who struggled with shooting the chunk at Depot when I was there were females and people with small hands, and some of the males who lacked grip strength. I struggled to adapt to the pistol myself, and now I never shoot my personal pistols because every time I do my shot with my issued pistol goes to hell in a handbasket.

I'm looking forward to a pistol that isn't almost as old as I am, and one I can trust my life to.

My current chunk for reasons unknown broke at some point during a shift a couple months ago. The hammer is supposed to sit at a quarter cock when loaded in the holster and at the end of the night I noticed it wasn't. A couple attempts to reset it were unsuccessful. If I had needed it that night, no matter how many IA's I did it would not have fired.

I sent it to the arsenal. The sent it back the first time still broken. They fixed it a second time and sent it back with no explanation whatsoever. I do not trust it anymore.
Well as others will say about glocks, just improve your training. DA/SA doesn’t mean you always have to have the DA on, if you know your going to shoot you can cock the hammer.

You have situations where cops have accidentally shot innocents because their Glocks didn’t have a real safety and they have been startled and fired in their direction.

No matter what direction you go in there is risks, just different kinds. SA only with a manual safety people will complain its too slow for cops. DA/SA people will say the initial trigger pull can throw off a shot. Trigger safety, can be too easy to pull and have you accidentally shoot.

I just think for their trials they should have opened it up more and seen what options are out there. Limiting it one way or the other isn’t how you get a fair competition. Some of the requirements I question if they are bonafide requirements or personal preference they are disguising as ‘requirements’.
 

RedFive

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Well as others will say about glocks, just improve your training. DA/SA doesn’t mean you always have to have the DA on, if you know your going to shoot you can cock the hammer.

You have situations where cops have accidentally shot innocents because their Glocks didn’t have a real safety and they have been startled and fired in their direction.

No matter what direction you go in there is risks, just different kinds. SA only with a manual safety people will complain its too slow for cops. DA/SA people will say the initial trigger pull can throw off a shot. Trigger safety, can be too easy to pull and have you accidentally shoot.

I just think for their trials they should have opened it up more and seen what options are out there. Limiting it one way or the other isn’t how you get a fair competition. Some of the requirements I question if they are bonafide requirements or personal preference they are disguising as ‘requirements’.
I'm a use of force instructor, I may not have ERT Assaulter level gunfighting skills but I can assure you I'm in the top 10% of the force. My training and the training I deliver to the membership is adequate. Our DAO pistol is a hunk of junk, and reflects an outdated view of Police shooting.

Please find me a single instance, in Canada, of a lower trigger weight or trigger based safety causing a Police officer to shoot somebody they shouldn't have. I don't care about the US because our training is miles ahead of what I've seen down there.

We can certainly agree there's a compromise one way or another. I would argue the specifications of the next pistol are a reflection of the current pistol. Our current pistol is heavy, unreliable, antiquated and challenging to shoot for the average member. The new specifications call for something that's modern, reliable, easy to shoot accurately under stress, lighter and currently in production so the arsenal doesn't have to cannibalize pistols for spare parts to keep the remainder in service. Its also a reflection of what other Police forces in Canada and elsewhere are carrying day in and day out, polymer framed striker fired low trigger weight pistols with lights and high viz or red dot sights on them.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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I'm a use of force instructor, I may not have ERT Assaulter level gunfighting skills but I can assure you I'm in the top 10% of the force. My training and the training I deliver to the membership is adequate. Our DAO pistol is a hunk of junk, and reflects an outdated view of Police shooting.

Please find me a single instance, in Canada, of a lower trigger weight or trigger based safety causing a Police officer to shoot somebody they shouldn't have. I don't care about the US because our training is miles ahead of what I've seen down there.

We can certainly agree there's a compromise one way or another. I would argue the specifications of the next pistol are a reflection of the current pistol. Our current pistol is heavy, unreliable, antiquated and challenging to shoot for the average member. The new specifications call for something that's modern, reliable, easy to shoot accurately under stress, lighter and currently in production so the arsenal doesn't have to cannibalize pistols for spare parts to keep the remainder in service. Its also a reflection of what other Police forces in Canada and elsewhere are carrying day in and day out, polymer framed striker fired low trigger weight pistols with lights and high viz or red dot sights on them.
If you need a second safety to ensure you don't inadvertently squeeze the trigger or have an office pop by accident, you shouldn't be carrying a pistol and I don't want you anywhere near me 😎.

I personally like Sig products. They never seem to let me down and I'm confident they are going to work when I pull them out of the holster. The 226 just has such a nice feel to it.
 

CBH99

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If you need a second safety to ensure you don't inadvertently squeeze the trigger or have an office pop by accident, you shouldn't be carrying a pistol and I don't want you anywhere near me 😎.

I personally like Sig products. They never seem to let me down and I'm confident they are going to work when I pull them out of the holster. The 226 just has such a nice feel to it.
Wait, you mean office pops aren’t a real thing??
 

KevinB

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Well as others will say about glocks, just improve your training. DA/SA doesn’t mean you always have to have the DA on, if you know your going to shoot you can cock the hammer.
What if you have no advance warning and need to fire from the draw?

Every entity that deal with those sort of precision requirements has dropped DA/SA

You have situations where cops have accidentally shot innocents because their Glocks didn’t have a real safety and they have been startled and fired in their direction.
That’s a training issue of putting the finger on the trigger before it should be.
It has been an issue with a number of departments dating back to old DA only wheelguns…

No matter what direction you go in there is risks, just different kinds. SA only with a manual safety people will complain its too slow for cops. DA/SA people will say the initial trigger pull can throw off a shot. Trigger safety, can be too easy to pull and have you accidentally shoot.
I’m sorry but that’s a poor analogy, to try to account design issues as the same as training.
For years the worlds premier HR units ran SA manual safety guns, the switch from either 1911’s or BHP guns was not due to that - but due to reliability and maintenance, and in the case of the 1911, also going to 40 then 9mm once JHP ammo had evolved as it was easier to shoot.
I just think for their trials they should have opened it up more and seen what options are out there. Limiting it one way or the other isn’t how you get a fair competition. Some of the requirements I question if they are bonafide requirements or personal preference they are disguising as ‘requirements’.
I can list 5 solid Duty Handguns that meet the RCMP Draft — it’s not solely Glock (albeit the Glock is best known and likely a preferred option). It’s very similar to the USSS Pistol Requirement which Glock won, and makes a lot of sense based on my experience.

I’ve been issued several different handguns over the years, SA Manual Safety, DA/SA, and Trigger Safety Striker guns, I also have a bunch of personal handguns.
Sure I can shoot my LAV Custom 1911 very well - but I get tennis elbow when I shoot a lot of Duty .45ACP loads. I can shoot my Novak Custom BHP exceptionally, and my Staccato P even better.

But I carry a Glock 19 for anything but range fun - why, because it’s safe, it works, and I can get parts and ammo for it anywhere.
 
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