RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.

 

[Remius]

And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.

Is the calculation of salary based on “armed situations”?  If so the how is that calculated?  Are police officers in high crime (armed) cities renumerated more than officers in lower crime cities?  Or is training and education a factor?  If a university degree is the norm then should they be paid more than forces that require only high school?

I don’t bemoan the RCMP wanting to have a competitive salary.  But are salaries too high as it is?  It’s still a valid argument.  Can municipalities afford that rising cost?  Some can.  Maybe that’s the issue.  A city that can afford to pay their police force a far better than average salary does so but then the force two towns over sees what they get paid and want to be comparable but that town can’t afford those salaries.  But they are forced to do so through arbitration.  Cool. Except that town can only afford a smaller force now so the cops there get over worked get ill equipped but their pay is really good. 

It’s a vicious circle and I doubt it can be sustained for much longer.  It seems to have gotten out of control.

I have no clue what the solution is.

 

[OldSolduer]

It’s a vicious circle and I doubt it can be sustained for much longer.  It seems to have gotten out of control.

I have no clue what the solution is.

When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor - because of overtime etc there maybe a need to adjust the system.

I have no clue how to fix it either.

 

[mariomike]

Can municipalities afford that rising cost? 

For reference,

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay
https://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-PDFs/Reports/2011/2011AbilitytoPayPositionPaper2011.aspx

 

[quadrapiper]

When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor - because of overtime etc there maybe a need to adjust the system.

The ever-politically-unpalatable "hire more people," combined with funding effective specialist 24-hour non-LEA (and probably non-EMS) responsive/emergency entities to shift workload.

 

[mariomike]

When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor -

According to the 2019 “sunshine list” of public-sector salaries,

Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders’s pay was $414,954.32.

Toronto Police Constable Abdulhameed Virani made $295,256.93.

Toronto Mayor John Tory's was $197,279.05.

 

[brihard]

Don’t conflate overtime with base salary; cops make more money in overtime when they give more of their time to their employer than what their contract requires. Of course they would be compensated for that.

If you want to argue the merits of base salary, go nuts. Don’t focus on the danger of the job. It’s real, certainly, and close to unique among professionals in that police are expected to go in when nobody else will- but that’s just one factor. I would contend that much more significant is the considerable individual responsibility every officer bears for decisions that can be life or death, life altering, can deprive people of liberty, and can have immense impact on the legal process. Police are also su next 24/7 to codes of conduct that have the force of law, and are subject 24/7, on or off duty, to expectations to act in an emergency to protect others. Police are subject to massive scrutiny, they get targeted with violence, harassed, doxed... At any point they could have to make a decision that could subject them to years of investigations and inquiries, and considerable legal jeopardy. They’re the criminal justice system’s first point of contact with criminal suspects, and are responsible for feeding prosecutors and the courts with useable, viable, credible investigative materials to support charges. They are expected to work 24/7 shifts that don’t care about family life, holidays, etc. The family has to bear the brunt of years and years of their loved one being called over and over to the worst experiences human beings can have.

So yeah, is there a lot of compensation given to police? Objectively, yes there is. But there’s lots to compensate.

 

[blacktriangle]

Rather than paying police less, I'd rather they just have higher standards of training and be more accountable for the decisions they make. Not sure why anyone would want poorly paid police, they have that elsewhere in the world and those countries are dumpster fires.

I think it also has to do with where you live...I know someone serving as a police officer down south in Silicon Valley. When you look at his salary, overtime, and overall compensation it looks high. Then you look at median income and cost of living where he works, and your perspective shifts a bit.

 

[brihard]

Rather than paying police less, I'd rather they just have higher standards of training and be more accountable for the decisions they make. Not sure why anyone would want poorly paid police, they have that elsewhere in the world and those countries are dumpster fires.

I think it also has to do with where you live...I know someone serving as a police officer down south in Silicon Valley. When you look at his salary, overtime, and overall compensation it looks high. Then you look at median income and cost of living where he works, and your perspective shifts a bit.

Ok, specifics please? In concrete terms what additional training do you believe is required that isn’t offered? I’m a big believer in more training, but I’d like to know what specifically you have in mind.

With regards to accountability, where in the current accountability mechanisms do you feel there are gaps, and what do you propose? Again, concrete examples please.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

If our cops had any more "accountability" there'd be an investigator riding in the back seat of every car....

 

[blacktriangle]

Ok, specifics please? In concrete terms what additional training do you believe is required that isn’t offered? I’m a big believer in more training, but I’d like to know what specifically you have in mind.

With regards to accountability, where in the current accountability mechanisms do you feel there are gaps, and what do you propose? Again, concrete examples please.

Keep in mind that I'm not an LEO, never have been, never will be. I'm also very pro-LE but also have to call things like I see them. I think you guys and gals get tapped to conduct a full spectrum of operations that no one else wants to do, or is capable of doing. You have a lot on your plate, competing priorities, and resource constraints. So please don't take my following comments as criticism as much as the observations of an average citizen.

1. More community engagement, breaking down the "us vs them" (fear/distrust) mentality on both sides of the fence. Improved mental health training and response to crisis calls. I also think you guys need to do a better job of taking care of your own and their mental health. How many officers are walking around with god knows what going on in their heads, at home etc but are still going to be on shift tonight when they shouldn't be? On the other end of the spectrum, I think you probably need more training and resources to prepare for high-threat environments (the real bad guys) I think right now, there are lot of generalists when the world increasingly requires specialists (not just a problem with policing)

2. Crooked cop? Firing squad. Concrete enough for you? Excessive use of force resulting in serious injury or death? No hiding behind the system or getting off. Firing squad or prison, no PC. Don't screw with the public trust, and the public that actually votes and pays taxes will be behind you for the most part. Accountability to me does not include sitting at home getting paid six figures for years on end after screwing up royally. I'd rather have higher quality police. Give me better police? I'm all for giving you even better salaries and paying for whatever training and equipment you need to do your jobs safely and effectively. There are literally monsters in this world as you are well aware. I know the alternatives to professional police aren't good. But that still doesn't mean I can't expect you all to be held to the highest standards of training and conduct. Get rid of the bad apples, and if it's the leadership that's the problem, burn the system down and send them packing to early retirement.

Sorry if this isn't detailed enough for you. I'm just a taxpayer and citizen, like 99% of everyone else watching and judging you 24/7.

 

[Jarnhamar]

RCMP watchdog says legislation needed to compel timely responses to complaint reports

The head of the RCMP’s civilian watchdog says legislation compelling the national police agency to respond to its reports faster would increase police accountability “exponentially.”

https://ipolitics.ca/2020/07/24/rcmp-watchdog-says-legislation-needed-to-compel-timely-responses-to-complaint-reports/



17 months on average for interim reports.

 

[brihard]

RCMP watchdog says legislation needed to compel timely responses to complaint reports

The head of the RCMP’s civilian watchdog says legislation compelling the national police agency to respond to its reports faster would increase police accountability “exponentially.”

https://ipolitics.ca/2020/07/24/rcmp-watchdog-says-legislation-needed-to-compel-timely-responses-to-complaint-reports/

17 months on average for interim reports.

I’m good with speeding that up- we want accountability systems to move in a more timely manner and not leave members in limbo. A corollary on this one: there’s no gatekeeper, no threshold on what will get entertained as a public complaint. The RCMP and complaints commission are, at their respective levels, obligate to fully entertain and wingnut spouting any nonsense. This likely contributes to the backlog. There is no consequence for repeated, vexatious complaints. Also note that the public complaints system is distinct from the disciplinary process. A complaint absolutely can lead to an RCMP act Code of Conduct investigation, or to a statutory (Eg crim code) investigation. Also worth noting that when an RCMP member is investigated or charged criminally they will likely also separately face a code of conduct disciplinary process that has to wait for the criminal matter to be disposed of in court first. It’s that latter process that can result in the RCMP discharging someone on disciplinary grounds. The code of conduct process has historically been badly used and at times weaponized by management; with the union in place now there should in time be fewer code investigations, and eventually the ones that go will be higher quality. Something like two thirds to three quarters are getting tossed now that members are being provided legal representation. Hopefully once it starts getting used properly the process will speed up for their being less BS getting submitted.

Reveng- I’ll get back to your points later.

 

[mariomike]

If our cops had any more "accountability" there'd be an investigator riding in the back seat of every car....

Reminds me of a story I read about the 64th United States Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy ( RFK ) during a ride-out with the NYPD in the mid-1950's.

One night in Harlem, they caught a man sexually abusing a two-year old. As Bobby watched, the police through threw the man out the window.

He kept his mouth shut. 

Edit: spelling.

 

[blacktriangle]

Reminds me of a story I read about the 64th United States Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy ( RFK ) during a ride-out with the NYPD in the mid-1950's.

One night in Harlem, they caught a man sexually abusing a two-year old. As Bobby watched, the police through the man out the window.

He kept his mouth shut. 

If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window! 

 

[RedFive]

If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window! 

That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?

 

[blacktriangle]

That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?

Nope! Just like RFK, I didn't see anything! If I were going to write them up for anything, it would be a commendation. I guess my moral GPS is all over the place, and I apologize if my comments offend you.

 

[mariomike]

If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window! 

Source:

Robert Kennedy: His Life by Evan Thomas page 71.

 

[RedFive]

Nope! Just like RFK, I didn't see anything! If I were going to write them up for anything, it would be a commendation. I guess my moral GPS is all over the place, and I apologize if my comments offend you.

Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.

I understand, appreciate and honestly welcome the high standard of accountability required in this line of work. The bar to instigate an Independent Investigations Office of BC investigation is pretty low however, and that usually causes a cavalcade of media and public negativity toward the Police as once the IIO is engaged we have no ability to defend ourselves. There is never a retraction or correction of previous stories however, and instead usually a new article that is clearly anti-Police advising the public of how large a travesty it is another Police officer has gotten away with "it" again, whatever the "it" is.

I was not involved in this incident, but I'll leave this link for you to have a look at the level of accountability, depth of investigation, and stress a former member of my Detachment was subjected to, eventually being cleared.

https://iiobc.ca/app/uploads/sites/472/2015/07/2015-107.pdf

The IIO is the result of the YVR taser incident, and despite screams of Police cover-up and corruption, their investigations have yet to convict a single Police Officer of excessive force.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?

RCMP deleted documents in wrongful conviction case, federal report finds
The bundle of documents released by a Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge Friday were instrumental in overturning the murder conviction of Glen Assoun, who spent nearly 17 years behind bars.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-wrongful-conviction-records-unsealed-1.5207994


I used to be very pro-capital punishment until Brihard annoyingly got me thinking what if the person is innocent.