- Reaction score
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- Points
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Posted by Ian Edwards <[email protected]> on Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:05:09 -0700
To Joan from Ian:
I think you are trying to agree with me, but the topic of cap badges is
not considered "frivolous" to be judged in relation to other "frivolous"
expenditures by other government departments, approval given because it
ranks as less frivolous than some other projects.
Derrick and others can correct me but I believe soldiers taking QL2
still wear the Canadian general service fried egg cap badge and the
course they take is often one in which members of all units are combined
together in the same platoon. After graduation they are "ready" to some
extent to join their own unit notwithstanding that they need QL3 to
learn the individual unit trade skills to be of real value. The GS cap
badge then becomes the mark of a rookie on one hand and on the other
hand does nothing to inculcate the bond necessary for group cohesion so
important in units almost all that count on teamwork. "Loyalty" is not
so much national as it is to ones‘ peers, and that is why regimental
esprit is still valued.
In the old days a soldier, somewhat illiterate, was basically incapable
of understanding higher national asperations. But he was capable of
understanding that he was part of an extended "family" of not more than
about 1,000 - his battalion/regiment. More than 1,000 people and he
couldn‘t focus on "who the others were". There have been some
exceptions, and one can argue that the 51st Highland Division esprit,
for example was more important than membership in the 2nd HLI, 1st
Gordons, or whatever. He helped his extended family members and they
looked after him, in barracks, in battle and protected him when drunk on
leave on civvy street. His commanding officer was "the old man", family
patriarch.
Should warfare come back again, and the resultant confusion and unknown
of the fog of battle occur, as might be expected - CNN etc. to the
contrary - the soldier will still have to focus on the task at hand.
He/she will know that looking after ones immediate buddies is more
important than anything else. He or she will know that their unit, if a
service battalion for example, is tasked with supplying gasoline to the
AFVs and that even though armament is heading towards his tank wagon he
must get through and not let their team down, not to mention the armd
unit sitting there out of gas. And that infy unit must take Hill 135 by
0800 hrs and the man on his/her right and left is depending on his/her
performance to both keep them alive and to enable the team to do its job
in the face of an almost overwhelming desire to cut and run when bullets
are heading their way "after all, in the total scheme of things my own
performace doesn‘t matter, does it? ... so save my hide and run". It‘s
the unit that counts then, not the country. It‘s the unit cap badge that
embodies that spirit, not the national flag or the UN flag. Those other
two icons are secondary, albeit somewhat important.
Did CNN change all that? Make regimental esprit de corps unimportant?
Are soldiers now so educated that they will fight only for the national
or international ideal? Well, they might not join unless CNN tells them
they should. Even with our sophisticated civilian communications,
soldiers won‘t/shouldn‘t have time in a slit trench or cowering in the
bowels of an AFV to take their cues on what to believe from Peter
Mansbridge, Lloyd Robertson or whoever. Or will and do they?
What other reason is there for a regimental cap badge? Some units of the
WW1 CEF without any "history" fought with utmost courage, etc. They
didn‘t need to know that they were being watched by the ghosts of former
members of the last 250 years, and that "the Grenadier Guards have never
surrendered before and therefore can‘t now" or whatever. They
soldiered-on valiantly because of "their mob" as the Brits would
express it was not to be let down, and their mob and only their mob
wore the same cap badge, even if the badge design was only a year old.
But "tradition" is embodied in that cap badge and it relates to the
small mob of today. Just makes it easier to inculcate that necessary
spirit in peace and in war. The unit badge, old or new, is still
necessary. And it‘s not just the cap badge itself the badge is just the
most commonly seen symbol of the unit.
I also collect cap badges, not for the fun of the acquisition, but to
study what/why is embodied in the heraldic devices within the design of
the badges. Otherwise, it‘s just a small hunk of metal, a fried egg.
"Joan O. Arc" wrote:
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Ian Edwards
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Traditions
> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:11:33 -0700
>
> Actually, there‘s not a whole heck of a lot of regimental identity
> that‘s paid for out of public expense, unless it‘s Reg Force. Even
> things like unit distinct cap badges, it‘s getting again, shades of the
> early 1970s so that the DND Supply system refuses to re-order without
> political pressure being applied. I know one PRes unit guess which
> one?? that could place an order for 300-500 cap badges for themselves
> and their affiliated cadet corps and DND system has told them to go to
> If regimental identity is an important source of morale for the men and
> women in the Forces, then I would think any tax payer who has any feel at
> all for how demanding life in the Services can be would have no problem at
> all paying to maintain a bit of tradition.
>
> Heaven knows, our tax dollars are directed to many projects much more
> frivolous than *that* in the run of an average year...
>
> - A taxpayer aka Joan
>
> **** , hubs and dies "lost/sold" etc. and won‘t be replaced.
>
> dave wrote:
> >
> snip, snip..
> I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
> > never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
> >
> > Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
> >
> > CHIMO
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to [email protected] from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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>
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> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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To Joan from Ian:
I think you are trying to agree with me, but the topic of cap badges is
not considered "frivolous" to be judged in relation to other "frivolous"
expenditures by other government departments, approval given because it
ranks as less frivolous than some other projects.
Derrick and others can correct me but I believe soldiers taking QL2
still wear the Canadian general service fried egg cap badge and the
course they take is often one in which members of all units are combined
together in the same platoon. After graduation they are "ready" to some
extent to join their own unit notwithstanding that they need QL3 to
learn the individual unit trade skills to be of real value. The GS cap
badge then becomes the mark of a rookie on one hand and on the other
hand does nothing to inculcate the bond necessary for group cohesion so
important in units almost all that count on teamwork. "Loyalty" is not
so much national as it is to ones‘ peers, and that is why regimental
esprit is still valued.
In the old days a soldier, somewhat illiterate, was basically incapable
of understanding higher national asperations. But he was capable of
understanding that he was part of an extended "family" of not more than
about 1,000 - his battalion/regiment. More than 1,000 people and he
couldn‘t focus on "who the others were". There have been some
exceptions, and one can argue that the 51st Highland Division esprit,
for example was more important than membership in the 2nd HLI, 1st
Gordons, or whatever. He helped his extended family members and they
looked after him, in barracks, in battle and protected him when drunk on
leave on civvy street. His commanding officer was "the old man", family
patriarch.
Should warfare come back again, and the resultant confusion and unknown
of the fog of battle occur, as might be expected - CNN etc. to the
contrary - the soldier will still have to focus on the task at hand.
He/she will know that looking after ones immediate buddies is more
important than anything else. He or she will know that their unit, if a
service battalion for example, is tasked with supplying gasoline to the
AFVs and that even though armament is heading towards his tank wagon he
must get through and not let their team down, not to mention the armd
unit sitting there out of gas. And that infy unit must take Hill 135 by
0800 hrs and the man on his/her right and left is depending on his/her
performance to both keep them alive and to enable the team to do its job
in the face of an almost overwhelming desire to cut and run when bullets
are heading their way "after all, in the total scheme of things my own
performace doesn‘t matter, does it? ... so save my hide and run". It‘s
the unit that counts then, not the country. It‘s the unit cap badge that
embodies that spirit, not the national flag or the UN flag. Those other
two icons are secondary, albeit somewhat important.
Did CNN change all that? Make regimental esprit de corps unimportant?
Are soldiers now so educated that they will fight only for the national
or international ideal? Well, they might not join unless CNN tells them
they should. Even with our sophisticated civilian communications,
soldiers won‘t/shouldn‘t have time in a slit trench or cowering in the
bowels of an AFV to take their cues on what to believe from Peter
Mansbridge, Lloyd Robertson or whoever. Or will and do they?
What other reason is there for a regimental cap badge? Some units of the
WW1 CEF without any "history" fought with utmost courage, etc. They
didn‘t need to know that they were being watched by the ghosts of former
members of the last 250 years, and that "the Grenadier Guards have never
surrendered before and therefore can‘t now" or whatever. They
soldiered-on valiantly because of "their mob" as the Brits would
express it was not to be let down, and their mob and only their mob
wore the same cap badge, even if the badge design was only a year old.
But "tradition" is embodied in that cap badge and it relates to the
small mob of today. Just makes it easier to inculcate that necessary
spirit in peace and in war. The unit badge, old or new, is still
necessary. And it‘s not just the cap badge itself the badge is just the
most commonly seen symbol of the unit.
I also collect cap badges, not for the fun of the acquisition, but to
study what/why is embodied in the heraldic devices within the design of
the badges. Otherwise, it‘s just a small hunk of metal, a fried egg.
"Joan O. Arc" wrote:
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Ian Edwards
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Traditions
> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:11:33 -0700
>
> Actually, there‘s not a whole heck of a lot of regimental identity
> that‘s paid for out of public expense, unless it‘s Reg Force. Even
> things like unit distinct cap badges, it‘s getting again, shades of the
> early 1970s so that the DND Supply system refuses to re-order without
> political pressure being applied. I know one PRes unit guess which
> one?? that could place an order for 300-500 cap badges for themselves
> and their affiliated cadet corps and DND system has told them to go to
> If regimental identity is an important source of morale for the men and
> women in the Forces, then I would think any tax payer who has any feel at
> all for how demanding life in the Services can be would have no problem at
> all paying to maintain a bit of tradition.
>
> Heaven knows, our tax dollars are directed to many projects much more
> frivolous than *that* in the run of an average year...
>
> - A taxpayer aka Joan
>
> **** , hubs and dies "lost/sold" etc. and won‘t be replaced.
>
> dave wrote:
> >
> snip, snip..
> I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
> > never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
> >
> > Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
> >
> > CHIMO
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to [email protected] from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
