Re: Israel Hits U.N. Post

[Kirkhill]

I would support that Michael.

 

[George Wallace]

the last thing I would advocate is "PC speak."  I would push the exact opposite: opinion that based on fact, experience or knowledge, and that is expressed clearly.  Opinion that is not based on these is bullshit, and bullshit was detested in this man's Army.  I trust that this tradition has not disappeared.  

Pikepusher

Although what you say is commonly held by many here as being what they stand for; I hope that you realize that this is a Privately owned site, not an "Official" DND site.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Fisk was interviewed on Newsworld around 1130 EDT, saying Hezb were great warriors and, in strictly military terms, beating the pants off the IDF.

Time will tell.  Then maybe the Fisking can resume.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jollyjacktar]

Fisk was interviewed on Newsworld around 1130 EDT, saying Hezb were great warriors and, in strictly military terms, beating the pants off the IDF.

Time will tell.  Then maybe the Fisking can resume.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

Mark
Ottawa

Interesting read Mark.  I guess I would rather be accused of being a Fisker than a Flamer.  Although I suppose I've been a Fiskee at times ;D

 

[tomahawk6]

PM Harper's comments.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060726.wmidea0726/BNStory/International/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20060726.wmidea0726

Radio interview with MG Mackenzie.

http://cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

 

[tourza]

Thanks for the welcome CanadaPhil.

I never claimed to be reading the 'only' credible source on this issue, you said that. Fisk's book that deals with the Lebanon War is called Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon. The book that I'm currently re-reading is his latest work, The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. I highly recommend both books, especially his latest book, to sort of fill in all the blanks in everything else we have read or studied regarding the Middle East and Far East.

As to your question about why I believe that Fisk tells it the way it is - I've read several books on the Middle East and in particular, the Lebanon War. Depending on who the author is and what his frame of reference is, the books tend to reflect the biases and prejudices of each author(not always, but most of the time). Example: pick up a book about Israeli forces in Lebanon during the Lebanon War written by an Israeli author and you might get one side of the story; pick up a book by an Arab author and you might get the other half of the story. The truth, as the old adage goes, lies between these two sides. Fisk lived the Lebanon War. He has nothing good to say about any of the parties involved. They were all complicit in the destruction of people and property. Rare is the author that writes about the ME and FE and dishes out criticism all around.

CanadaPhil, I would encourage you and anyone else who is truly interested in the situation in the Middle East today to consider reading one or both of these books.

Regards,

Tourza

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Copyright The Ottawa Citizen 2006:

Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
Canadian wrote of militia's presence, 'necessity' of bombing
Published: Thursday, July 27, 2006

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.[/b]

A Canadian Forces infantry officer with the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and the only Canadian serving as a UN military observer in Lebanon, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener was no stranger to fighting nearby.

The UN post, he wrote in the e-mail, afforded a view of the "Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area," he wrote, noting later it was too dangerous to venture out on patrols.

The e-mail appears to contradict the UN's claim there had been no Hezbollah activity in the vicinity of the strike.

The question of Hezbollah's infiltration of the area is significant because UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, speaking Tuesday just hours after the bombing, accused the Israelis of the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the base near Khiam in southern Lebanon.

A senior UN official, asked about the information contained in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the world body had been caught in a contradiction.

"At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon.

"Whether or not they thought they were going after something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them where we were. They knew where we were. The position was clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us."

Even if Hezbollah was not firing rockets at the time of the bombing, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail indicates they were using a terrorist tactic of purposely drawing out enemy forces near a neutral site, said retired Capt. Peter Forsberg, who did two UN tours between 1993 and 1995 during the Bosnian war.

The UN's limited mandate, meaning that its observers are unarmed and have few options, put the observers in a poor position, he said.

If indeed Israel was attempting to hit Hezbollah fighters in the area, it hasn't yet used the excuse to explain its actions because it wouldn't make it any less guilty in the world's eyes, Capt. Forsberg said.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2006

 

[dredwulf]

I Can't Believe  HVK is dead. 

He was a scary man, an absolute epitome of a soldier and I reckoned him indestructible. I remember vividly the day he 'killed' me during a FIBUA ex. He was the course commander of my ISCC in '95.

To see that face posted with that news article...

It's surreal.

We've truly lost ot only an amazing man, but a very valuable weapon from the Canadian arsenel.

Sgt Crough JP

 

[MarkOttawa]

Audio of interview on CFRA, Ottawa, with Colonel (ret'd)  Michel Drapeau .
http://www.cfra.com/chum_audio/Colonel_Michel_Drapeau_July26.mp3

Mark
Ottawa

 

[GAP]

Gap,
the last thing I would advocate is "PC speak."  I would push the exact opposite: opinion that based on fact, experience or knowledge, and that is expressed clearly.  Opinion that is not based on these is bullshit, and bullshit was detested in this man's Army.  I trust that this tradition has not disappeared.  

Pikepusher this was your original post (emphasis is mine)

There are two other development indicated on this thread that bother me: links to blogs, and politicking.  Just because something is posted on a blog does not make it the real gen.  A lot of blogs are purpose-driven (and the spreading of objective truth usually is not that purpose,) and there are no rules of evidence.  Just because something is posted on Small Dead Animals does not make it proof of or for anything.

I understood this to be a military/Army forum, and the military used to be apolitical.  So let us leave Conservative or Liberal, right or left, pro or agin' Harper, and politics in general out of it.  Even in Ruxted Group Editorials.  There are enough blogs out there where partisan aims can be pursued

without trying start a flaming war, your comments taken in the context given is exacty what I maintain you advocate...PC speak. Again, I would point out that the focus of this site is develop debate about issues. Sources and links to blogs and political issues are a relevant part of that debate, but they need and are taken with the grain of salt all such sources engender. Many times I have followed the link to a blog, where the article/discussion of the subject is outlined in greater detail and allows me a clearer understanding of where the person I am debating is "coming from". Do I believe everything I see and read...not on your life, and neither should anyone else. Do we have a duty to clearly enunciate the views that we are supporting, along with supporting data/links...you bet.

 

[tomahawk6]

Not sure why Anan has not pulled the UN observers out of the line of fire. In fact its high time for UNIFIL to withdraw as its mandate ends Monday and is unlikely to be renewed. The presence of a PRC officer as part of the observation team was a might curious.

 

[Journeyman]

The presence of a PRC officer as part of the observation team was a might curious.

Talking with one of our MilReps a while ago (now making this 3rd hand info), PRC had been "goaded" into actually supporting some of the operations, given their P5 status. UNIFIL was seen as a "safe" tour where nothing happened that could cause diplomatic problems for them.
Sometimes God just has a twisted sense of humour 

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Talking with one of our MilReps a while ago (now making this 3rd hand info), PRC had been "goaded" into actually supporting some of the operations,

The PRC had a full Colonel MILOBS with UNIKOM (Iraq-Kuwait post April 1991) (second-hand info).  It does happen - we've even seen Bosnian observers recently 

 

[GAP]

Australia to withdraw peacekeeping troops
Associated Press  POSTED AT 1:47 AM EDT ON 27/07/06 Globe & Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060727.wausileb0727/BNStory/International

CANBERRA — Australia has decided to withdraw its 12 peacekeeping troops from southern Lebanon because of the danger there, the defence minister said Thursday.

Defence Minister Brendan Nelson said the decision was made Wednesday but declined to say whether the pullout had occurred yet.

“Late yesterday, we made a decision to bring our 12 Australian Defence Force personnel back from southern Lebanon to Beirut where, of course, it is important that they continue to work with our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials,” Mr. Nelson told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio.

The withdrawal comes after four UN observers, including a Canadian, were killed by an Israeli air strike in southern Lebanon on Tuesday.

 

[chupracabra]

Everyone sure is certain that visibility was good and that this outpost was clearly marked and distinguishable from, say, any number of other white coloured buildings. I don't see what good all the speculation is doing. Let's save our indignation for people who can be demonstrated to deserve it - ie wait for the investigation. Israel is in a shooting war with her soldiers in harm's way - let's respect that for now and just hope no more of our own soldiers are injured in the interim. It's about all we can do.

I must agree with waiting for an enquiry, but unfortunately, it will be done by Israel, which doesn't bode well. I think the facts that have come in are pretty damning, but this will all go away quietly like it has always done in the past, all the more made easier by a Prime Minister who apparently has no balls and excepts Israel at face value! Where is the outrage? If this was done by anyone else, there would be serious repercussions.

 

[Dare]

A brief summary of the listed points. Many of which had been said previously but not as directly. The fact that a few posts in someone starts off about "USS Liberty" has being evidence of this being a conspiracy I find distasteful.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/why_the_un_post_was_bombed/

Why the UN post was bombed
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By Andrew Bolt
Thursday, July 27, 2006 at 09:22am


The lynching of Israel continues, this time with United Nations boss Kofi Annan accusing it of the “apparently deliberate targetting” of a UN observation post, killing four observers.

The usual suspects are now running with this line, with The Age front page screaming: “UN told: please explain.’’

The venom against Israel - as splashed about by former Deputy Prime Minsiter Tim Fischer on ABC 774 this morning - is extraordinary. Do these people seriously think Israel aims to kill UN staff, and that this was not simply - as Israel insists - a tragic mistake?

What makes Annan’s allegation so unforgiveable is that his UN Interim Force in Lebanon has been warning for days about what almost certainly caused this tragedy. Hezbollah fighters, who have already been firing behind screens of women and children, have also been shooting from behind and next to the UN positions, presumably hoping Israel will not dare shoot back and risk exactly this kind of propaganda disaster.

Read the UNIFIL press releases for yourself to learn that Hezbollah has not just shot at and seriously wounded UNIFIL observers - without any protest from Kofi Annan or The Age. You’ll also learn that UNIFIL has repeatedly reported Israeli shelling and bombing near UNIFIL outposts because Hezbollah fighters were shooting from right beside them .

Says the UNIFIL press release of 20 July:

Hezbollah firing was also reported from the immediate vicinity of the UN positions in Naquora and Maroun Al Ras areas at the time of the incidents (of Israeli return fire).

Can the jeering critics of Israel stop catcalling for a minute and explain how Israel is to defend itself against an enemy that shoots from among women and children, and from behind UN soldiers?  Can they explain why they are such apologists for terrorists? Can Annan explain why he did not call on Hezbollah to stop risking the lives of his staff, or pull them out when they were being used to screen terrorist fighters?

UPDATE 1: More evidence.  Retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie says he recently received emails from the Canadian peacekeeper killed at the UN post who’d told him that Hezbollah was using his post as cover.

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

(Thanks to Little Green Footballs)

UPDATE 2: Canada’s prime minister Steven Harper also makes sense:

Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper said an Israeli attack on a UN outpost that killed four, including a Canadian, was a “terrible tragedy” but not likely deliberate.

At the same time, he questioned why the UN had manned the outpost in Lebanon near the Israeli border as bombs exploded all around.

“We want to find out why this United Nations post was attacked and also why it remained manned during what is now, more or less, a war during obvious danger to these individuals,” he told reporters.

UPDATE 3: Hezbollah is listed here and in the US and Canada as a terrorist group. Yet The Age today gave one of its spokesmen, Ali Fayyad, a senior member of Hezbollah’s executive committee, a quarter of a page to put his case against Israel. Am I alone in finding this shameful? I guess the paper at least “balanced” it by running alongside it a piece by an Israeli minister. Can someone older than I tell me if it was the habit of The Age in World War 2 to run pieces by Mr Hitler alongside ones by some Jewish spokesman not yet dead for the sake of a “balanced” argument?  We can’t be far from the day that The Age hires Mr Osama bin Laden as a columnist. When Michael Leunig retires, perhaps?

 

[Dare]

I must agree with waiting for an enquiry, but unfortunately, it will be done by Israel, which doesn't bode well. I think the facts that have come in are pretty damning, but this will all go away quietly like it has always done in the past, all the more made easier by a Prime Minister who apparently has no balls and excepts Israel at face value! Where is the outrage? If this was done by anyone else, there would be serious repercussions.

You think so? First off, what damning facts are you talking about? If the US had done this, how different do you think it would be? If we had been fighting in Afghanistan and shelled a position overrun with the enemy, flying the enemies flag.. what would be done then? You know what I'm outraged at? Hezb'allah using UN troops as shields! THAT's what I'm outraged at. You know why they do that? So people like *you* can spout off about how it's all some Israeli conspiracy. Yes, in the middle of a war, I'm sure Israeli generals were sitting in a smoke filled bunker plotting to piss off everyone who's supporting them! Clearly.

P.S. I saw your post before you edited out the snide remark about "chosen people".. not quick enough, bud.

 

[tamouh]

You think so? First off, what damning facts are you talking about? If the US had done this, how different do you think it would be? If we had been fighting in Afghanistan and shelled a position overrun with the enemy, flying the enemies flag.. what would be done then? You know what I'm outraged at? Hezb'allah using UN troops as shields! THAT's what I'm outraged at. You know why they do that? So people like *you* can spout off about how it's all some Israeli conspiracy. Yes, in the middle of a war, I'm sure Israeli generals were sitting in a smoke filled bunker plotting to piss off everyone who's supporting them! Clearly.

Bravo Israel....use Canadian passports to move their spies, infiltrate the US defense , their greatest allie with a spy agents then when caught denounce the agent, fire upon UN observers, bomb canadians on vacation, and not hesitate once to put its allies at risk for the selfish purpose of securing their own being. This is Israel you defend, a great allie who bomb you from behind then come out to your funeral.

 

[CanadaPhil]

Ahhhhhh.....Tamou!

Welcome Back!

Everyone was starting to miss your pearls of wisdom.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Bravo Hezbollah...use UN positions to fire from, us UN uniforms to kidnap Israel troops, fires rockets with no regard or tactics, started this latest mess by kidnapping two soldiers off their own land, don't hesitate once to put their own citizens in harms way.  This is Hezbollah YOU DEFEND.