Reconstitution

[Rifleman62]

In fact the proposition was actually to hire the current clks on class B into PS positions to start. Meaning they would work daytime as Civies and could work evenings and weekends as reservists thus getting paid for that time.

To hire current clks as PS might be a problem for a posted position though. Some of the clks may also quit the ARes as they now have a new job.

At what level was the proposition? How far did it go? Who shot it?

 

[Remius]

Hmmm…interesting.

Or we could also reduce the stupid and mostly unnecessary amount of admin we do by way of an end to end review of all of our processes…

I believe some of that is being looked at. Last I heard there is a new pay scanning capability coming in soonish in regards to pay sheets using QR codes. The concept looks good but I’ll wait until I see a final product.

 

[Remius]

To hire current clks as PS might be a problem for a posted position though. Some of the clks may also quit the ARes as they now have a new job.

At what level was the proposition? How far did it go? Who shot it?

I don’t think it would be the posted postions. Just the class Bs.

 

[Remius]

There is a massive problem with overloading RQs with secondary tasks. The demands of the CFSS and Material Accounting are now such that RQs should be concentrating on Supply, and I would argue should be MMTs. But that we cant do, yet.

Its a whole different world out here with regard to Class B then.

Trust me I am well aware. I suffered through that for 3 years. So did my predecessors and so did my successors.

 

[MilEME09]

You know, people need to have their leave. And yes, I prioritize RegF leave over an ARes course.

And just like the civilian workd the caf is entitled to deny leave to prioritize the needs of the business. When the CAF spends thousands to transport, house and feed reservists in the summer, if a couple people want to cancel the course so they can go in vacation early, they are part of the problem.

 

[dapaterson]

Or…stay with me here…we could hire civilian employees to staff unit orderly rooms that have no expectation of ever deploying, thus freeing up scarce mil PYs to do more military things…

There are some civ clerks on the Army Reserve establishment. The history is "interesting".

The established permanent class B positions in units are primarily clerks. There are others employed on other than permanent full time positions.

Process automation will simplify some aspects. But there will remain significant efforts in admin support needed for units with lots of HR functions to support. Cheaping out on support to personnel costs in the long term.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And just like the civilian workd the caf is entitled to deny leave to prioritize the needs of the business. When the CAF spends thousands to transport, house and feed reservists in the summer, if a couple people want to cancel the course so they can go in vacation early, they are part of the problem.

There are very strict rules around the cancelation/withholding and recall from leave. And there may be financial obligations.
I encourage you to read:

KR&O Vol 1, Chap 16, Leave Sections 1, Para 16.01 Withholding and Recall From Leave
CFLPM Chap 2, Section 2.7 (inclusive) Withholding and Recall From Leave

If you can find a regulation that puts an ARes course in that type of sphere of importance, so as to leave a CO with a soldier with an outstanding leave balance and a financial liability, I would be interested to read it.

I think this expectation is unrealistic. Again we dont need to you to be trained as much as your RegF peer. We need you "OFP" and we can work you up when needed.

 

[Remius]

There are very strict rules around the cancelation/withholding and recall from leave. And there may be financial obligations.
I encourage you to read:

KR&O Vol 1, Chap 16, Leave Sections 1, Para 16.01 Withholding and Recall From Leave
CFLPM Chap 2, Section 2.7 (inclusive) Withholding and Recall From Leave

Specifically “(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.”

If you can find a regulation that puts an ARes course in that type of sphere of importance, so as to leave a CO with a soldier with an outstanding leave balance and a financial liability, I would be interested to read it.

It’s right there in the rules. Withholding falls under what MilEME09 is saying. Recalling is a different beast.

 

[dapaterson]

Pedantic note: the QR&O have not been renamed and legally remain the QR&O until the regulation setting their name is legally amended.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Specifically “(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.”

It’s right there in the rules. Withholding falls under what MilEME09 is saying. Recalling is a different beast.

Is an ARes course a bonified Military Requirement for a unit (CO) that has nothing to do with the members enrolled on that course ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pedantic note: the QR&O have not been renamed and legally remain the QR&O until the regulation setting their name is legally amended.

Honestly, I wasn't sure and swung the bat.

 

[Remius]

Is an ARes course a bonified Military Requirement for a unit (CO) that has nothing to do with the members enrolled on that course ?

You can apply that logic to just about anything in the military, that isn’t the question or the definition.

It states only a military requirement. That’s it. Recall defines what “imperative military requirement” is but that applies to recall situations.

 

[mariomike]

And just like the civilian workd the caf is entitled to deny leave to prioritize the needs of the business.

Called it, "Operational nececessity" or declared a "State of Emergency".

Although once your vacation had been scheduled, or started, you were free. I think.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You can apply that logic to just about anything in the military, that isn’t the question or the definition.

It states only a military requirement. That’s it. Recall defines what “imperative military requirement” is but that applies to recall situations.

Yes it is, and its designed that way to give COs flexibility to make case by case decisions.

Recalls and withholding of leave are only done in the most extreme of circumstances. I have never had leave withheld, and I have never been recalled for anything outside of us putting to sea for a SAR or the start of R2HR and deployment; and that is planned and expected.

You'll have to forgive me if I simply don't see an ARes course in that same sphere. Nor would I advise a CO of that being a worthy reason. But, I advise not decision make.

 

[Remius]

Yes it is, and its designed that way to give COs flexibility to make case by case decisions.

Recalls and withholding of leave are only done in the most extreme of circumstances. I have never had leave withheld, and I have never been recalled for outside of us putting to sea for a SAR or the start of R2HR and deployment; and that is planned and expected.

You'll have to forgive me if I simply don't see an ARes course in that same sphere. Nor would I advise a CO of that being a worthy reason. But, I advise not decision make.

Recalls yes. Withholding? It’s a very normal thing and happens all the time. And yes it is or planned most of the time.

I can’t say one way or another. I’m not advocating it either. Unless needed.

But I can tell you that I have been advised of periods where I was not permitted to take leave. Or was limited. Both in the CAF and the PS. Pre approved leave though was always honoured. I have never been recalled though.

You keep saying CO. Most of this generally comes from higher. Or at least from what I’ve seen. Because everything we get is priority and no fail. Go figure.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Recalls yes. Withholding? It’s a very normal thing and happens all the time. And yes it is or planned most of the time.

I can’t say one way or another. I’m not advocating it either. Unless needed.

But I can tell you that I have been advised of periods where I was not permitted to take leave. Or was limited. Both in the CAF and the PS. Pre approved leave though was always honoured. I have never been recalled though.

You keep saying CO. Most of this generally comes from higher. Or at least from what I’ve seen. Because everything we get is priority and no fail. Go figure.

Withholding leave is not a normal maneuver. I guess you could argue prescribed block leave periods is a type of withholding leave, but not the same as this is talking about. I have rarely seen anyone's individual annual leave request withheld, in fact I cant think of one example.

Its important as well to read further in the QR&O (Thank you @dapaterson ) that the word "imperative" is used. Can you think of an example of an ARes course that has that "imperative" factor ?

I think you've had some "reserve-isims" inflicted on you or you're talking about your civi job, because we don't F with peoples leave unless something operational (ex SAR tasking) comes up.

Because COs are the ones who will decide to recall/withhold leave. A HHQ Commander will task COs, COs will decide who they need to do the job and if needed adjust leave.

 

[Furniture]

We are arguing regulations, when this whole tangent comes down to a single anecdote.

I highly doubt entire ResF serials are being cancelled because some MCpls decided to change their leave plans for the summer. That's not how training works, even in the big bad evil RegF.

What does happen is schools get over tasked with running training, so they have to beg operational units for instructors, and sometimes those operational units can't spare their pers for instructor taskings. Training is important, but so is the day-to-day running of the CAF, there needs to be balance between those two priorities.

 

[Halifax Tar]

We are arguing regulations, when this whole tangent comes down to a single anecdote.

I ummm didn't see this as an argument. I thought @Remius and I were having a good conversation...

 

[Eaglelord17]

So we automate/streamline/adjourn the admin processes and free up Class B positions to apply to training and other value added activities...

... kind of like millions of other corporations have been doing since the 80s.

But yeah, it's that leadership thing again

The ARes admin system isn’t something that is easy or simple to simplify. Just using pay as a simple example its based off half days and full days. There is fin codes attached to every pay sheet for different reasons. Different people attend different events, so every pay sheet is unique. When stuff is unique you have to manually modify for it. Automation works great with a bunch of the same.

Regs don’t have nearly the same amount of admin per soldier simply because most of the time consuming parts for the Reserves are standard for the Regs and as such are automated.

There are very strict rules around the cancelation/withholding and recall from leave. And there may be financial obligations.
I encourage you to read:

KR&O Vol 1, Chap 16, Leave Sections 1, Para 16.01 Withholding and Recall From Leave
CFLPM Chap 2, Section 2.7 (inclusive) Withholding and Recall From Leave

If you can find a regulation that puts an ARes course in that type of sphere of importance, so as to leave a CO with a soldier with an outstanding leave balance and a financial liability, I would be interested to read it.

I think this expectation is unrealistic. Again we dont need to you to be trained as much as your RegF peer. We need you "OFP" and we can work you up when needed.

Everyone keeps saying everything will be covered on work up. Training keeps getting cut back because ‘someone else’ will cover it. What if that never happens? At the end if the day it is weak line which costs lives if the military ends up in a war. Every bit of training someone receives is ‘work up’. It is always better to over train and create competent capable soldiers than undertrain and have cannon fodder, or has Ukraine not shown us the folly of not training effectively yet?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are some civ clerks on the Army Reserve establishment. The history is "interesting".

The established permanent class B positions in units are primarily clerks. There are others employed on other than permanent full time positions.

Process automation will simplify some aspects. But there will remain significant efforts in admin support needed for units with lots of HR functions to support. Cheaping out on support to personnel costs in the long term.

Trust me, I am not talking about cheaping out on support.

There are tonnes of processes we still do the 1940s way and a bunch more that are probably of little/ no value.